Difference in Levels?

[g29w]

What are the differences btw
NL25, NL50, NL100?
or
.1/.25, .25/.5, .5/1, 1/2?

What are the differences btw high stakes vs small stakes? besides the obvious difference in general player skill...what are the differences in play environment?

at what point does reading specific players become an absolute neccessity?

[g29w]

anyone? I'm sure someone must have climbed through the levels one by one before?

[Sponger15SB]

well, if you win at $50NL, you cannot win at $100NL.

That is just from my experience.


But seriously it is just more agression and trickiness

[LokiV]

[ QUOTE ]
well, if you win at $50NL, you cannot win at $100NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, true.

Until it gets above NL100 the skill level seems fairly even across the board.. you'll find a few more tricky/tight people at every level, learn to spot and avoid/be wary of them.

[jdl22]

I disagree here. I think the play at the NL25 tables is generally rancid while the play at the NL50 and NL100 tables are similar (merely bad). At the NL200 and above it's hit or miss.

[LokiV]

I play on pokerstars if that matters.

[Snoogins47]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree here. I think the play at the NL25 tables is generally rancid while the play at the NL50 and NL100 tables are similar (merely bad). At the NL200 and above it's hit or miss.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems about right, though I haven't played at NL200, and haven't played a whole lot at NL100.

I think it's because on party, NL25 is the lowest it goes. The play is absurdly bad, by a lot of people.

NL50 and NL100 seems to get to the point where the average table consists of a few total morons, two players somewhere between "not bad" and "good," and then fill in the blanks with a bunch of mediocre people who have some vague idea of hand strengths, but tend to fall well on the passive side of things, and like to call a lot hehe.

Oh, and what level do you play that reading people isn't essential? ;P

[fimbulwinter]

Here's my two cents, feel free to comment if you have more experience:

Party Poker:
Earnings potential: ***
Monkey factor: *****

25/50c (25NL): Very passive with not much PFR. tenmax games can be beat much like limit; nut peddling is king there because you WILL get called. bluffing not so important. 6max is a real zoo, but much more profitable, as one poster put it: people know you should be much more aggro 6 handed, but they have no idea how to do it correctly. you can really run this game over if you pick the right table.

50c/$1 (50NL): Played this game once and didn't much like it; things seemed fishier at higher or lower levels. that said, players bet the strength of their hands and could be re-stealed quite easily. the whole limp/push deal with AA/KK still worked here too, although probably more a result of the crappy party blind structure. people seemed a little tighter, but not a rock garden. still certainly profitable, but i'd rather play 100NL or 25NL as those games seemed better. oh yeah, only played full ring here.

$1/2 (100NL): only played 6max here so i can't comment on the full ring, but it seemed to be the polar opposite of 25NL. everyone over-aggro but in all the wrong places. players still bet the strength of their hands and could be induced to bluff like clockwork. sadly, limp/push didnt work here the few times i rememberd trying it FWIW. you cannot run this game over, but you can pseudo-nut peddle and can re-steal so long as you're willing to be ballsy preflop so they think you're one of the boys and are there to "gambool". this may be why the resident 2+2 mega-rocks have a hard time with this one, but they play full ring so i could be wrong. not a super hard game, but there are easier nuts to crack- i wouldnt play this game unless i knew a donator sitting or was whoring.

Prima:
Earnings Potential: ****
Monkey Factor: ***

25/50c (50NL)
Though the play here is a bit better than party, the deeper stacks really make up for it and give a skilled player a huge overlay. there are about 10 regulars here who love dropping 5-6 buyins a night- they keep this game worth playing. even without one of these guys, the game is fine as tables can be controlled. you can either play properly and take their money a little at a time or get a little laggy and start stacking people, but you'll have to PFR some strange hands with position (22, JT, 56s etc.). basically people here can't get away from a big pot, so your overlay postflop, esp if they hate you already, is worth the -EV of raising a hand that might not be the best preflop. plus people dont know when they're being pot-committed, so they'll call a turn minraise with just a flush draw and be forced to pay off their last 10 bucks hoping their left over ace-high is good. mothing like a table where you can stack someone with ace high against a flopped set or overpair.

50c/$1 (100NL) only played 6max, one word: gamble. get prepared to be put to the test. if you've got the BR, there's money to be made, but you gotta deal with dropping a franklin with AA against KJ, QT etc. players generally have more than the means for this game (those that play it i mean) so they really dont care.

1/2, 2/4 (200NL, 400NL)
The bigger games are tricky, but still not tooooo bad. I've sat when there are two known donators at the table and made marginal returns playing rockily. people here fear the minraise like its the fist of zeus. i found minraising a nut flush draw with position to be hugely +EV here. also nice that 3xBB and 4xBB PFR's were enough to get the right hands to call instead of the 6xBB i was used to at the lower limits. prolly should talk to wayfare/slyAK cos I didnt play too long in these games (maybe 1K hands at most).

Crypto/Interpoker:
(the promised land)
Earnings potential: *******
http://money.cnn.com/2003/09/04/pf/saving/pepsi_monkey_game/monkey.03.jpg

50c/$1 (100NL):
First off this cardroom is linked to a casino. second its stacks are deep and third there's no pokertracker etc. to do the wrok for you. this place is heaven. normal 6 max games are super loose/passive, but raise on the button 3-4 times in a row and its gamblin' fever time. if you know how/when to switch gears and what the table thinks of you and what the table thinks you're thinking, you stand to make massive money. plus the great monthly/hourly bonuses of course. this game is one helluva rush, you certainly can't run it over, but you can beat the crap out of it if you've got a lot of patience, agression and a little common sense.

i'm stepping down from my soapbox-

fim

PS- at every level reading is necessary:

25/50NL- be able to read basic betting patterns (see a monster from middle pair etc.) as well as notice players who bet the strength of their hands.
100NL- be able to pick off bluffs. people will always river bluff here. the ability to read/induce/stop bluffs is key here.
200+NL- here's where i really dont know. i guess i'd say you must be able to play a hand while not defining it and know your opponents betting patterns. lots of people are still real methodical here (i found myself check-raising TPTK and overpairs against habitual button bettors here a lot for example). also, know how to identify the sharks here. people usually arent playing like psychos, but they are playing bad at these stakes, so stay the hell away from the guy with 12 buyins at the table- he's better than you.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
What are the differences btw
NL25, NL50, NL100?
or
.1/.25, .25/.5, .5/1, 1/2?

What are the differences btw high stakes vs small stakes? besides the obvious difference in general player skill...what are the differences in play environment?

at what point does reading specific players become an absolute neccessity?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fimbul's response was a great post, definately refer to that. I'll add some thoughts of my own:

I play mostly Pokerstars, so I'll list the micro limits to the small/mid limits.
.01/.02 - It's penny poker, but with a 5$ max buy in. With 250 bets it can get interesting. The fact is people are truly awful, or sometimes there are decent players just going there to blow off steam. (If you see a guy buy in 5$ and moving all in PF every hand till he loses it... That's me after a bad beat on a higher limit) This is the one limit where hand reading doesn't matter, because 90% of your opposition will only look at their hand. Thus, if there is two pair on board, but they have a small flush, they wont hesitate to call an all in. Anyways...
.05/.1 - Most people skip this limit, (When they feel they are "ready" they simply move up to .1/.25) but it's a very good early limit. The buy-in is now 100 bets, as opposed to 250 for the penny blinds, so I think this is a good place to start. People start becoming a little more aggressive, but every other hand still have 7ish people to a flop. Tight play gets rewarded, but dont bluff here. Every table has a sheriff.
.1/.25 - Every table will have 1 or 2 solid players who seem like they know they they're doing, but since most penny players jump immediately to this limit, it's still very easy $. Plays like the previous limit since it's introductory, but with slightly more money. I've played a little bit of Party 25, and I'd rate the Pokerstars 25 (with smaller blinds) as slightly tougher, only because the whole table doesn't see every flop. It's a bit tighter, but a bit more passive; it's harder to make bigger money here. That said, if you can't beat this limit, you have to relearn NLH.
.25/.5 - The play starts to get better, and sometimes (oh my!) a preflop raise will take down the blinds. It still isn't really important to mix up play at all, but there *will* be some very good players who 4-table at this limit and make a nice amount of money. It's fun to bash heads with them, but for the most part, avoid these players. (In the potlimit game, avoid PapRomano) The typical 2+2er can beat this as well, tight + smart play is still key, (Or if you have a LAGgy style, like Fimbul, I'm sure he could chew this up,too /images/graemlins/grin.gif ) The true difference between this limit and previous ones are that the typical player does start to think about what you have, not just what they have, (2nd level thinking) but this is also giving credit to some of the morons who play there, too. Every table will have 1-2 good players, 2 (sometimes more) clueless players, then tight/passive players. The other thing is players do not bet enough anytime; it will be rare to find other players betting the pot.
.5/1 - More aggression then .25/.5, but still same mix of the type of players. I really didn't find this any harder then .25/.5, the two are similar limits. Once again you have a few solid players who 4-table and the like.
1/2 - I have found the play steps up drastically... I think there is a huge jump between this limit and .5/1 I dont exactly know why, alot more trickiness, some oddball players who are good, and just less bad players. That said, I think hand reading is a MUST at this limit. (At the lest)

I hope that helps.

[g29w]

Thanks a lot for the replies!

Currently, I play a lot of .1/.25 PStars and NL$25 Party. I find the max buy-in difference can be very annoying. I tend to like it when my opponents are passive, so I have a lot easier time at PStars than Party so far (but I haven't played at party for too long). This is probably due to not nut-pedaling enough and not playing like an absolute rock.

My question about when reading becomes a important factor is in regard to multi-tabling. I can easily get a feel for the table and read bet patterns pretty easily - this again is probably due to the low levels. But playing mutiple tables, it is harder for me to remember specific player descriptions - unless he's an obvious standout (maniac, ultra passive). I just wanted to know when enough people are being tricky that I will have to remember how they specifically play - rather than simply grouping the tables into a certain style. For example, a "tricky" play would be river bluffing (like on a 3-suited board w/o the flush), I almost never find river bluffers at low levels. (this doesn't include simply stupid play).

So from what I understand I need to be able to disect each table and mark the standout players that I need to watch out for and take advantage of, especially as the limits go up while multitabling.

[jdl22]

Fair enough. I was referring to the games on Party/Empire.

I have played only the lowest games on Stars so I don't know anything about the higher limits.

[r3vbr]

VERY GOOD POST!
I play Pokerstars also and I agree with everything you said! Especially about the drastic level up from 50/1->1/2

[Guts]

Hey There,

Yeah I agree with much of what you say.

"and sometimes (oh my!) a preflop raise will take down the blinds." --- Except this /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I don't know what you consider 'sometimes' to be, but I steal the blinds fairly often when I find myself at a tight table. Last week, infact, I found myself at such a tight table, that I was able to raise 4x UTG PF and win the blinds! I had 84s, flashed it, and called them all cowards /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Yeah yeah I know it was stupid, but the table was just so darn tight!

Cheers,

Guts,

[aces_full]

Very good description of the PS games. I play there too and I have worked my way up from .01/.02 to .10/.25, and I still play some .05/.10 there.

Most of my play is at Paradise and I generally find it to be similar to Stars. I started playing NL when Paradise first introduced the .01/.02 $2 max buy-in games. The early days of this game were a goldmine. I had my share of $20 sessions. Nobody bet their hands, so you could chase ANYTHING that had even a remote chance of improving, and if you hit, you were almost guaranteed to get your all-in called in at least two places. Build your stack up to $6 and then get a hand against some fish who also has $6, now you have $12. I was averaging about 50BB/hr during the two months that I played at that limit. Near the end of my time there I noticed that it tightened up a bit, even for penny poker. There were also some regulars in the penny game (and I still see some of them playing there) who were somewhat respectable and seemed to be making some profit.

Paradise .05/.10 Still pretty bad play, but slightly better than .01/.02. When I first moved to this limit I noticed that it could be a bit more aggressive than .01/.02 so chasing with any two became less profitable.

Paradise .10/.25 In my opinion this is where things start to get interesting. I still see some truly horrible play, but I also see some trickier players. I know there are better players there because I see some 2+2'ers post .10/.25 hands, and I have even spotted some known 2+2'ers at the tables. I find the level of play here to be much like my impression of PS .10/.25-very table dependent. This limit is where I stopped treating AA and KK as a pre-flop auto push. If someone raised PF at .01/.02 or .05/.10 and I had aces or kings I would always push, and nine out of ten times I would get called by all sorts of crap, even the likes of J7 offsuit and 23 sooooted. I found at .10/.25 a PF all-in or a suspiciously big raise, like say, $5 got no action, and even got me some ridicule like : "Way to make 75 cents with those pocket aces." And yes, standard raises will pick up pots uncontested pre-flop. I also notice that Paradise $25NL has a group of regulars that I seem to play against every night. A lot of these guys I have played with from .01/.02 all the way up, and I know some of them are making a profit at the game-I try to avoid them.

Paradise .25/.50 I'm not really bankrolled (in my mind) or completely comfortable there yet, but the few times I have played there I haven't noticed a big difference there compared to .10/.25. In fact I see a good deal of .10/.25 regulars playing .25/.50 too.

At .10/.25 NL my win rate is a mere 5BB/hr, so yes it is all that much tougher than .01/.02 NL.