Flop Percentage Live/Tourney and Literature

I've seen some discussion on this subject for limit games.


I believe in limit the overall concensus is somewhere between 20 and 30 percent depending on the texture of the game.


1. But how about in big bet games? Now I'm talking percentage of flops seen, including the blinds. I realize it will vary from time to time, but overall guess-timate average, is what I'm after.


I know Doyle's SS advocates a somewhat looser aggressive style which would result in more flops seen. TJ's book seems to be a bit more on the tight but aggressive approach. I haven't read Caffione's (should I?). Any other literature

recommendations?


I know that in big bet games the implied odds can be much greater therefore may influence one to see more flops.


2. So is it safe to say one should see more flops in big bet games? If so give a percentage average.


3. How much of a difference in big bet tournament play?


All comments welcome.


KC50

20-30% in a limit game is WAY too many, unless you're on the 20% end. 15% is about right at a full table.


In big bet, there is no standard. I've won a lot playing (and raising) preflop with well over half of my hands. I've been in other games (specifically the online PL/NL Omaha8) where I don't see the flop outside of a free ride in the blind more than 10% of the time, if that. Even in the same game, you might maximize your profits playing 15% of your hands, while I maximize my profits playing 35%, or vice versa.


In big bet poker, all that matters is how often you get the big money in the middle with the best of it.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Greg,


I was hoping you'd reply. Your reasoning make sense.


In closing you said: "Big bet poker, all that matters is how often you get the big money in the middle with the best of it".


I think this does indeed matter the most.


However, I don't believe that's all that matters.


I think when there is a decent size pot, it matters knowing your opponent well enough to:


(1.) steal when you're quite sure he doesn't have the hand he is representing...


and


(2.) steal when you're pretty certain your opponent believes you have the best of it (whether you do or not).


Comments?


KC

Greg (or anyone) ,


When you said "20-30% in a limit game is WAY too many, unless you're on the 20% end. 15% is about right at a full table"...did you mean including the blinds or without the blinds?


Thanks in advance,


KC50

15% outside the blinds in limit ring game is about right.


In NL games the flop percentage is highly dependant on stack sizes, and the amount of preflop raising that is occuring. In games with deep enough stacks i will see EVERY flop if I can. If the game is very short stacked i just go allin preflop with any good hand. The deeper the stacks the larger your preflop raises should be.


One of the biggest pots i have ever won was with 63o. A guy with a huge stack made a small raise (about 1% of his stack), and i called and flopped a full house. He was good enough not only to double me up with his AA, but also to trap someone with 45 in the middle who made a straight on the turn.

Well, of course, I was being overly simplistic.


Still, stealing a sizable pot because you know the opponent will fold is putting in the big money with the best of it, right?


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

"Still, stealing a sizable pot because you know the opponent will fold is putting in the big money with the best of it, right"?


Yes of course it is. But I didn't think of it that way at first.


Thanks,


KC50