has anyone lost motivation at their day job?

[BIGRED]

Has anyone lost motivation at their day job because of the on-line poker's earning potential? My job was pretty boring to begin with so it didn't take much for me to come to this state of mind. How about you guys? Has your on-line game gotten to the point where now you are constantly thinking about "what if..."?

[Sponger15SB]

I have. School [censored] sucks.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone lost motivation at their day job because of the on-line poker's earning potential? My job was pretty boring to begin with so it didn't take much for me to come to this state of mind. How about you guys? Has your on-line game gotten to the point where now you are constantly thinking about "what if..."?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mine has gotten to the point where Jan. 1st Poker will be my only job.

If you are obsessed enough with Poker everything else pales in comparison....except critters and the act of procreating without actually creating.

You won't get any of those "Should I turn Pro?" posts. If you don't think I should you can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned.

[Benjamin]

Yes ... I'd be surprised if it wasn't a common affliction around here /images/graemlins/grin.gif

My current thinking is that I am going to wait to build my bankroll a little more so I can take on the 10/20 6-max game. If/once I prove I can beat that handily playing at least 2 tables, then I will focus on building a huge living expenses fund of at least 1 years expenses ... then I'll be seriously thinking about the jump.

Seems like if I can successfully multi-table 10/20 6-max then I should easily make more than I do now on fewer hours of more enjoyable (on average) work.

I've been building up a bit of a real estate portfolio over the years, so managing and maintaining those properties is also a part-time job for me that will get me away from the computer.

B.

[Tosh]

I have lost my motivation for poker since going back to university. Poker really isn't where the money is if you want truly big salaries.

[Baulucky]

I'm starting to hate poker as a day job after 10 months of playing only for money at low stakes. The pressure of generating weekly $ and the fear of moving up have created a burnout situation for me.

I have not many better $ options available at the moment.

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]

Mine has gotten to the point where Jan. 1st Poker will be my only job.

[/ QUOTE ]
Congratulations!!!... I need to be that decisive. Get this. Sometimes I wish I would get fired just so that I would have no choice. It's idiotic, but it's true.

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]
I have lost my motivation for poker since going back to university. Poker really isn't where the money is if you want truly big salaries.

[/ QUOTE ]
For me, I went thru school without really knowing what I wanted to do. After I graduated, I basically, went where everyone else went (IT) and have been just showing up at work for the paycheck. Not much fun there. If you found something you like that motivated you to go back to school, then that's great for you. Not many people get to do that. I would imagine for many here, that passion is poker.

[MicroBob]

I had the 'luxury' of already having an inferior job (BJ dealer at a low-paying casino) when I decided to take up online poker full-time. Additionally, I knew that they were always so short-staffed that if things went badly for me I could go back any time I wanted.
Plus, when I took the job I viewed it as more of a temporary situation anyway....I had NEVER entertained ideas of staying in that field as a permanent career.

So my decision was much easier than someone with a more stable job with better income/incentives, etc that they may have invested much time training for.


I really wasn't complaining that much about my employment situation. Most nights I actually enjoyed it....but the decision was still relatively easy considering things like salary (less than $30k) and working EVERY weekend, etc etc.

I could easily make more playing online, even 2/4 and 3/6, so I took a shot even though I wasn't a very good player...if it didn't work out I could always go back no questions asked.

That was back in April and things have gone swimmingly so far.


So those are some of the types of things to consider imo -
if it doesn't go well or you decide poker all the time is really awful or if somehow online-poker goes in the crapper, will you have created significant problems for yourself or will you be able to rejoin the workplace with relative ease and not be too far behind in your field.

I can always go back to BJ dealing if I need too. And I could even try to go back to doing the type of work I had enjoyed for 10 years (with relatively low-pay and lots of travel) before I dealt.


If it means anything....I freaking love having online-poker as a career. Free-time whenever I want/need it and no annoying boss/supervisor looking over my shoulder or grimacing if I try to take time-off for a wedding or funeral or something.
If your budget is thin it can be a bit stressful of course.....but all of my previous jobs had significantly more stress to my mind due to idiot-bosses or stupid office-politics, etc than online poker budget concerns.
I'm in better shape now because I have the time to get back into running and join a soccer league. I'm virtually never in the 'guzzle-my-coffee-and-inhale-my-sandwich-while-changing-lanes-rush-rush-rush' mode because I'm running late or it's really important that we get this accomplished on time, etc etc.
although, FWIW, i only had minimal experience in the 9-to-5 office-type work-scene (which was more like 8-to-6 actually) and I have the upmost of respect for anyone who is able to do that consistently for their careers and keep a smile on their face because to this individual it looks extremely difficult.

[Homer]

I hate both poker and my day job at this point. I just want to do nothing all day.

[Paul2432]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate both poker and my day job at this point. I just want to do nothing all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are serious you might want to talk to a professional. Lack of motivation can be a sign of clinical depression. IANAP though.

Paul

[axioma]

very much so.

i actually earn less at work than i would if i spent the time at home playing (i just finished university).

of course there are other reasons i go in every day, largely experiance, but it does seem rather silly at times.

if you are getting nothing more out of your work than purely the money it brings, then it makes your desicion easier.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I wish I would get fired just so that I would have no choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried this but it didn't work. The company may fold though, so there is hope. Yes, motivation is a bit low.

I do have a plan to save up living expenses and pay off all debt. In the meantime, staying with the job is the responsible thing, even if my poker hourly is on average 3X my job hourly. After all, I could run bad and have to choose between the bankroll and the rent.

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate both poker and my day job at this point. I just want to do nothing all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are serious you might want to talk to a professional. Lack of motivation can be a sign of clinical depression. IANAP though.

Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Paul, I appreciate the sincere advice. I don't really want to do nothing. I just want to do things that I find more enjoyable, but don't have the time for at the moment (like kicking back and watching 10 hours of football on a Sunday afternoon).

-- Homer

[Benjamin]

[ QUOTE ]
I have lost my motivation for poker since going back to university. Poker really isn't where the money is if you want truly big salaries.

[/ QUOTE ]

I went to grad school so I could get a good job, but I have never wanted to pursue the 'truly big salaries' because that involves 'truly long hours' for years to get there, and then more of the same to earn your keep. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I've got a good job with solid pay, great benefits and not terriblly long hours, but, like Big Red, I just show up for the paycheck. If I can earn more (after accounting for benefits and self employment taxes) in about the same hours playing poker ... then I'm going to have to do it. Not there yet, but getting closer.

B.

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]

If it means anything....I freaking love having online-poker as a career. Free-time whenever I want/need it and no annoying boss/supervisor looking over my shoulder or grimacing if I try to take time-off for a wedding or funeral or something.
If your budget is thin it can be a bit stressful of course.....but all of my previous jobs had significantly more stress to my mind due to idiot-bosses or stupid office-politics, etc than online poker budget concerns.
I'm in better shape now because I have the time to get back into running and join a soccer league. I'm virtually never in the 'guzzle-my-coffee-and-inhale-my-sandwich-while-changing-lanes-rush-rush-rush' mode because I'm running late or it's really important that we get this accomplished on time, etc etc.
although, FWIW, i only had minimal experience in the 9-to-5 office-type work-scene (which was more like 8-to-6 actually) and I have the upmost of respect for anyone who is able to do that consistently for their careers and keep a smile on their face because to this individual it looks extremely difficult.

[/ QUOTE ]
Micro, you're one of the culprits that got me thinking. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
I could easily make more playing online, even 2/4 and 3/6, so I took a shot even though I wasn't a very good player...if it didn't work out I could always go back no questions asked.

That was back in April and things have gone swimmingly so far.

[/ QUOTE ]
Quit saying stuff like this. You're going to make me quit my day job. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Congratulations on your success so far as a pro.

[lacky]

I second bob completely. I've been full time for almost a year, couldn't be happier. Don't feel like typing so if you want details search my posts /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Steve

[Punker]

Sometimes.

Then I have a 50 big bet losing streak and it goes away.

[SomethingClever]

In a few (5ish) years, I hope to take a year long sabbatical and go traveling with the wife, playing wi-fi internet poker along the way for the necessary fundage.

It's good to have goals.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
Then I have a 50 big bet losing streak and it goes away.

[/ QUOTE ]

50BB is not a losing streak, it's a hiccup.

[MicroBob]

LOL.
I feel responsible. don't blame me if you try it and everything goes crazy.

in fact, David Ross's journal got me thinking towards my decision a little bit too so I guess it's a chain-reaction thing.


Here's the thing:
If you're just in a funk then be responsible and stick it out at your job (especially if it means severed ties if you leave). I always found that just drinking more coffee usually gave me a rosier outlook.

But if you're TRULY miserable there then why bother.
Life is too short to put yourself through that crap.
Right now the weather is gorgeous out and I'm outside on the patio of the internet-coffee place clicking away.

I have a few friends who I bump into here (grad-students and low-wage workers) who are incredibly jealous of my "job" and tell me so. I never go into details of how much I make....it's usually "more than I made when I was a dealer so it pays the bills."
Just the fact that I can pay the bills while doing this is looks like an amazing dream-come-true scenario to them. Having worked incredibly hard for incredibly low-wages in the past I'm inclined to agree.
Even though it can be a grind sometimes I still feel like 'well, this really IS the life. this is pretty darned nice.'


Again, I was making so little at my old job that I was likely going to be thrilled to make any piddly amount via poker that would make many of you full-timers wince.

I've actually worked for less than minimum-wage before because it was a field I was extremely passionate about.

So, for me, I am in the unusual situation of sweating LESS about paying the bills as an online-poker player....whereas the reputation is that poker-players become significantly MORE stressed about rent and bills because they don't know if they are going to make it.


Finally, I don't know if I intend on doing this forever. After 5-10 years I could very easily get sick of it but hopefully would have a bit of money in the bank.
If I ran across a truly terrific job offer that paid well and I thought I would enjoy and get fulfillment out of I would have no reservations about accepting it.
Since I am not actively looking that isn't likely to happen.
But I would say it's equally likely that I will still be playing online-poker a few years down the road as it is that I will be doing something completely different with minimal-occasional poker.

So that's a consideration too....Poker might not necessarily be ideal as a 30-40 year career. It might be better as a long-term temporary job of the in the 2-5 year range.
By that time, you might be stuck with poker as one of your only options for all you know as you may be way out of the loop in your field.



Just some thoughts.
There are many individuals out there who can and will paint a far less rosy pic of life as an online-poker pro.
In my case the pros significantly outweigh the cons....but individual results can and will vary.

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
I have lost my motivation for poker since going back to university. Poker really isn't where the money is if you want truly big salaries.

[/ QUOTE ]

Around here only being president of a reasonably large firm is the only thing beating online poker for cash.

If you can 6-table 3/6 you'll beat what a doctor earns in Sweden. And that's before figuring in that the doctor will pay 45% tax, and the poker player none.

Pay for psychologists/therapists suck incredibly hard, so I am seriously entertaining poker as a full time job. If everything bombs I already have an education as a programmer. But that's such a soulless job.

[IggyWH]

Work blows... but I'm also a fulltime college student. I only work about 12 hours a week so I don't mind it much. It helps pay the bills and it's an office job so I am free on the weekends to get trashed at will.

Poker is a nice addition to my spending money though. I got to purchase a new computer last week that without poker, would have never happened. What's sad though is last night I made more in poker than I will for a month at work.

[PITTM]

yeah, i quit my job after i realized i was making more playing poker online.

rj

[Shoe]

I used to have this problem. That's why I quit my day job.

[Synergistic Explosions]

I quit my job 18 months ago when I began winning more in 4 hours a night than I made working 10 hours a day.

It's scary to do, and friends and family think you are crazy. But I am happy now.

[OnlinePokerCoach]

"If you can 6-table 3/6 you'll beat what a doctor earns in Sweden."

How much per hour total can you make by 6 tabling 3/6 holdem?

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
"If you can 6-table 3/6 you'll beat what a doctor earns in Sweden."

How much per hour total can you make by 6 tabling 3/6 holdem?

[/ QUOTE ]

360 hands, you beat em for 3BB/100 if you are crushing 3/6, so that's 6*3*360/100=64. Let's be modest and say $50 an hour.

And no, I am not doing 3BB/100 at 3/6. I know others here do though.

[MicroBob]

this has been covered before of course.....
just work the numbers

if you are a decent multi-tabler it is not unrealistic to make around 1BB/hr per table (less than 2BB/100).
Thus on 6 tables of 3/6 it would be possible to make $36/hr.


Obviously, the more tables you play the more mistake-prone you might be.

$24/hr on 4 tables is much easier to accomplish than $36/hr on 6 tables. So if you aren't used to playing more than 3 tables and are thinking of trying 6-8 I wouldn't rely on being able to maintain a 1BB/hr average for each table.



Also note that this is non-stop play. Every little break you take doesn't count in your hourly rate. This is why it might be best to go by win-rate per hand or per 100 hands or whatever.


On 6 tables you can get 350 hands an hour. In 6 hours that's 2100 hands. Toss in some breaks to keep your brain from frying and a good, tough day of 2k hands over an 8 hour stretch is possible (but doing this on 6 tables over 8 hours even with breaks might be too much to handle for many).

anyway.....
1.8BB/100 is about $10/100hds
$0.10/hd X 2000 hands = $200/day
$200/day X 5 days = $1k/wk
$1k/wk = $50k/yr


When I play 2/4 and 3/6 I liked to view each hand played as roughly $0.08 of income. If I made more than that in the end that's great.....but I'm not a great player and I thought $0.08 per hand was a reasonable goal.

[lacky]

I'm not an affiliat so don't ask, but a good rakeback deal is good for about another $12 an hour or so playing 6 tables of 3/6.

[MicroBob]

yeah. i don't even really figure my rake-back into the equation. I just get it the following month and view it as a nice, little happy surprise.

$2/hr per table for rake-back seems slightly high to me but not by much.

At 3/6 I think you could be getting around $0.03 per hand at 25% or so. 60hds/hr puts this at $1.80.
If you're in the 15-20% range then I think it's closer to $0.02/hd with is $1.20 per table-hour.

these are my rough guesses....it's entirely possible that you're estimate of $2/table-hour is more accurate.

[Punker]

When I have a job, its a hiccup. When I am playing full time, it feels like the bubble has burst and I have been exposed as a fraudster who doesn't know anything about poker.

[dogsballs]

[ QUOTE ]
You won't get any of those "Should I turn Pro?" posts. If you don't think I should you can go piss up a rope as far as I'm concerned.

[/ QUOTE ]


Nice.!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[lacky]

Not argueing the point, but my numbers for 3/6 are

29,932 hands played
$42,293 total rake
9.07 ave players per hand

so $42,293/29,932= $1.413/9.07= $.156 mean rake per hand
at 25% rakebake $.0389 per hand
for 60 hands/hour $2.34 per table
for 6 tables $14.02 per hour. You usually ave slightly less than 60 hands per table per hour, and everyone needs bathroom breaks etc. so I round down to $12. If those numbers look of for some reason let me know, but thats what I figure off of.

Steve

[BIGRED]

[ QUOTE ]

I feel responsible. don't blame me if you try it and everything goes crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm going crazy already trying to justify why I should stay at my 9 to 5. There are good reasons to stay, but if I keep falling back to those reasons whenever a new opportunity arises, I think I will just end up spending the prime of my life there.

[ QUOTE ]

But if you're TRULY miserable there then why bother.
Life is too short to put yourself through that crap.

[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't say I'm miserable at work, but seeing how I'm going in only for the money anyway, I don't see a good reason for me to continue when there is new opportunity.

[ QUOTE ]

Just the fact that I can pay the bills while doing this is looks like an amazing dream-come-true scenario to them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you not concerned when people see you play out in the open? And do they really beleive when you tell them that's how you make a living? I know now that it can be done, but a year ago when I first found this site as a beginner, I thought you all were degenerate gamblers in denial.

[ QUOTE ]

Finally, I don't know if I intend on doing this forever. After 5-10 years I could very easily get sick of it but hopefully would have a bit of money in the bank.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, this definitely is not a long term endeavor as a full time gig. One of the reasons why full time poker for now is so attractive to me is because it may open new opportunities that I wouldn't have considered before. With the free time, I can already think of few things I can try to build as a second career so that I can depend less on poker money for long term sustenance.

Thanks for your many thoughts. I started on-line as a beginner about a year ago. I never thought that a year later, I would be considering this path. I always wanted a different gig, but poker??? I continue to lean more towards making the jump as each month passes and I see confirmation in my numbers that this might be for real. It will still take until the end of the year for me to see how things pan out. Until than, posts like yours and others who have gone that path will help me in making my final decision. If nothing else, discussions like this is also very theraputic to me.

[theBruiser500]

What is David Ross's journal URL? thanks

[krazyace5]

A poster has them all here.

http://members.cox.net/cuff4u/david1.htm

great reading material

[Smokey98]

Damn you guys are motivating me more and more with each post. I beginning to feel bad for wanting to take a night off from studying poker.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
I hate both poker and my day job at this point. I just want to do nothing all day.

[/ QUOTE ]


HOMER, ME AND U ARE V. SIMILAR BUT I THINK WE HAVE ALREADY FIGURED THAT OUT. I HATE ONLINE POKER TOO BUT IT'S MONEY. ALSO I WOULD HATE A DAY JOB IF I HAD ONE


I AM DRUNK SO DON'T MIND THE CAPS

[MicroBob]

It's not really 'people' seeing me play out in the open.
Only friends who would have some idea that I know what I'm doing and how it works are privy to this info.

Strangers who might happen to see me play are fairly infrequent and they don't get to know that I do it for a living. My friends ask enough stupid questions....I don't talk poker with strangers....even at the B&amp;M poker-table.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
I AM DRUNK SO DON'T MIND THE CAPS

[/ QUOTE ]

I like it. from now on, if you are tanked, just use all caps, so we'll know what to take seriously and what not to.

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate both poker and my day job at this point. I just want to do nothing all day.

[/ QUOTE ]


HOMER, ME AND U ARE V. SIMILAR BUT I THINK WE HAVE ALREADY FIGURED THAT OUT. I HATE ONLINE POKER TOO BUT IT'S MONEY. ALSO I WOULD HATE A DAY JOB IF I HAD ONE


I AM DRUNK SO DON'T MIND THE CAPS

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, it's kind of funny that when you're sober you don't use caps and when drunk it's all caps. Anyway, yeah, I'm beginning to think that playing online poker, making more money and having less responsibility is the lesser of two evils. The only problem is there's no sense of satisfaction, which is something I need for some reason.

-- Homer

[Baulucky]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate both poker and my day job at this point. I just want to do nothing all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your game limit and what is your day job?.

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate both poker and my day job at this point. I just want to do nothing all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your game limit and what is your day job?.

[/ QUOTE ]

I quit my engineering job a little over a year ago and took a job teaching HS math about two months ago.

I feel most comfortable 3-tabling (sometimes 4-tabling) 2/4 and 3/6 and my PT stats tell me I make a shade under 3 BB/100. I'm fairly confident that I can 2-table 5/10 SH to the tune of 2 BB/100, but don't have enough PT hands to prove it yet. Also, I am not comfortable with the swings at that limit, as I am in general a very risk-averse person (yes, I realize if I can beat the game handily there is little risk, but something deep inside of me still isn't at peace with the swings).

-- Homer

[Baulucky]

Interesting coincidence in our psychological profiles.

I guess the only people that make it big are the ones willing to work a lot harder and risk a lot more than I.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
I have lost my motivation for poker since going back to university. Poker really isn't where the money is if you want truly big salaries.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where can i make $300k/year with no tax (i'm english) working the hours i want? I'm studying a maath degree atm and i doubt i'll top my earn in 10 years time.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes.

Then I have a 50 big bet losing streak and it goes away.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty much the reason so many people shouldn't go pro. A 300bb losing streak would end their career, most probably because of the emotional stress.

[Baulucky]

How did you get to be so good?. (Serious question).

I'm amazed at the edge young people get over a 42 yr old like me. It may be due to several huge losses I've suffered during my life. I'm so unwilling to take poker risks that I amaze myself sometimes. You, on the other hand, have confessed going thru a 400BB down fluc and took it in stride. I wonder if you could have done so if such downswing had occurred at the beginning of your 15-30 play.

I, now, believe that you can actually 8-table profitably. Congrats on your skill and dedication.

[radek2166]

Yes i have. I work in a hospital. I have for the past 10 years. I would love to tell them where to shove it. I wont cause thats all I have.

I watch Doctors lie to patients I watch family's hold on to any bit of hope with no real hope. I have become so cynical from working in a hospital.

The other day I had a lady who had lung cancer. Her husband o so earnest. yet so oblivious to life. His wife is dying lying in ICU. He stands there and wonders when she will go home. When he should contact hospice so she can go home. Her next move when is to end up on life support.

How bout the lady who came in for open heart surgery who did not do very well. All the husband can say is Dr. so so and so said "shes an excelent cannidate for surgery." Even thought she has multipul medical problems. Now she lays in ICU with a hole in her trach to help her breath.

Cant forget the 92 year old lady who came in with head bleed and the doctor had the balls to tell the family "im an optimist I see your mom walking out of here"

Also cant forget the guy who was ok with dying and the nurse sold him on life support like a used car salseman sells you on a lemon.

Yes my job has gooten to me. If you want to hear more let me know.

I got a ton more

[FlFishOn]

Suckers.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
I hate both poker and my day job at this point. I just want to do nothing all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your game limit and what is your day job?.

[/ QUOTE ]

I quit my engineering job a little over a year ago and took a job teaching HS math about two months ago.

I feel most comfortable 3-tabling (sometimes 4-tabling) 2/4 and 3/6 and my PT stats tell me I make a shade under 3 BB/100. I'm fairly confident that I can 2-table 5/10 SH to the tune of 2 BB/100, but don't have enough PT hands to prove it yet. Also, I am not comfortable with the swings at that limit, as I am in general a very risk-averse person (yes, I realize if I can beat the game handily there is little risk, but something deep inside of me still isn't at peace with the swings).

-- Homer

[/ QUOTE ]




wow even more similar than i thought. i am looking into becoming a HS physics teacher.

[Baulucky]

[ QUOTE ]
i am looking into becoming a HS physics teacher.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you need to graduate from college to teach HS in the US?.

[fyodor]

I have a computer store. When I am not busy I am playing poker. When someone comes in off the street and I am in the middle of a hand I tell them there are better prices down the street.

Is this affecting my business?

[wonderwes]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate both poker and my day job at this point. I just want to do nothing all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are serious you might want to talk to a professional. Lack of motivation can be a sign of clinical depression. IANAP though.

Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

Hsh, the story of my life. Except its college instead of a job and I have many many ps2 games. Not to mention Grand Theft Auto San Andreas will be out in less than 2 weeks which will consume my life for many hours as I try to be the best thug possible in a GTA game.

--- Wonderwes

[Jurollo]

I believe so.

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i am looking into becoming a HS physics teacher.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you need to graduate from college to teach HS in the US?.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe there are a few states that don't require a college degree. Arizona maybe?

[UTGunner]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes my job has gooten to me. If you want to hear more let me know.

I got a ton more

[/ QUOTE ]

I for one would like to hear more of your hospital stories. You should repost your post in the Psychology Forum as a new thread.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
i am looking into becoming a HS physics teacher.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you need to graduate from college to teach HS in the US?.

[/ QUOTE ]


in massachusetts you need a masters degree in your field to teach, however you can get the job w/ a bachelors and you have 5 years to get your masters.

Confucius say: Man not lose what never had. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
I hate both poker and my day job at this point. I just want to do nothing all day.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is both funny and sad, primarily because i feel exactly the same way.

My recent -$1k swing has dented my poker enthusiasm, and pathetically, its mainly due to bad play not bad luck.

[KC50]

...haven't lost motivation yet.

:&gt;)

KC

[lefty rosen]

I have gone batshit on a 100BB downswing, granted I made some mistakes on some wild loose tables but it really shook me and that was just 4 bills at 2/4 Pacific. I think why guys can't go pro is because most people just have 300BB and very little savings so they don't have the psychological strength to have months where the marginally win and technically lose because of living expense considerations....

[Blarg]

The losses in poker are definitely hard ones to take. Doing it for a living can just amplify that enormously. Probably a good reason nobody should try it until they've both proven over a very substantial number of hands that they're winners AND been through at least a few really terrible downturns. You can't afford to freak out or tilt off money once a downturn hits, if you play poker for a living.

[plj8624]

MicroBob, I have been reading about your exploits. Congrats on your success so far and I wish you continued success in the future. However, I have a bone to pick with you (and most others) who quote things like:

[ QUOTE ]
anyway.....
1.8BB/100 is about $10/100hds
$0.10/hd X 2000 hands = $200/day
$200/day X 5 days = $1k/wk
$1k/wk = $50k/yr

[/ QUOTE ]

I just picked up and read "Gambling Theory and other Topics" and it really jolted me how the swings in any form of gambling can take their toll. Your estimates of expectation after some number of hands is probably conservative and fairly close to accurate, but you (and again, I don't mean just YOU but many many others who do this) are completely ignoring fluctuations and standard deviation.

Anyway, to the original poster, it isn't as simple as "I make $X/hr at my job and I think I could make $X an hour at poker, plus my job sucks and poker is more enjoyable." Poker definitely has advantages over a traditional job but it also has huge disadvantages, the largest of which is the swings.

[Sponger15SB]

When he talks about win rate he factors in all the swings....

so when he says 1.8bb/100 that doesn't mean he will win at that rate.... then lose for a week and then think he still makes 1.8bb/100.

He means something like: If my average total BB/100 is this, then I should make this

[plj8624]

I'm totally with you Homer. I am slowly working on saving and investing money so that hopefully someday, I will get there where I am just living off of interest and dividends. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[plj8624]

I am aware of what you are saying, but in a real life cash flow situation, it doesn't do you much good to have a 1.8 BB/100 win rate if you have a long losing streak when you need money for living expenses. Not to mention if you have a sustained bad run and go broke. To be fair, MicroBob mentioned risk in his posts and how if one can help it at all one should have something to fall back on.

Of course, there are risks in everything in life but the lesson I got from GTAOT was that even players who think they are "playing it safe" are often taking much more risk than they think.

Pretty much the only solution I see is to be independently wealthy like Homer was talking about. Then you can play poker, lounge around, whatever.

[Nepa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i am looking into becoming a HS physics teacher.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you need to graduate from college to teach HS in the US?.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe there are a few states that don't require a college degree. Arizona maybe?

[/ QUOTE ]

In Pennsylvania you need a college degree to teach H.S. in public schools but you don't need one to teach in Private Schools.

Homer Did you ever try "home of the Hog yet? Walley's

[Blarg]

[ QUOTE ]
I am aware of what you are saying, but in a real life cash flow situation, it doesn't do you much good to have a 1.8 BB/100 win rate if you have a long losing streak when you need money for living expenses. Not to mention if you have a sustained bad run and go broke. To be fair, MicroBob mentioned risk in his posts and how if one can help it at all one should have something to fall back on.

Of course, there are risks in everything in life but the lesson I got from GTAOT was that even players who think they are "playing it safe" are often taking much more risk than they think.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is why a bankroll has to be a small part of what you have saved up. Counting on never losing a bankroll or never having an unanticipated expense that suddenly claws at your savings is a dangerous game.

[Blarg]

Here's a bit of a rant on school these days. Couldn't help it.

In California, things are tightening up some but you used to be able to teach public school under a "temporary" emergency provision without a college degree or any teaching credentials. Being bilingual was especially a plus, as California adopted programs in which you could go to school for years and never learn English. Learning English would damage the self-esteem, dontcha know.

Anyway, these emergency provisions let people go on for years without any real credentials or training, and as these teachers filtered into the system by many, many thousands, there was a turn from learning phonics and punctuation and breaking apart and diagramming and understanding sentences, and a turn toward touchy-feely "natural" language theories. Such theories found a receptive audience in teachers uneducated and unqualified to teach language, and the schools and unions that wanted to keep them employed. Learning language became a lot of talking about uplifting stories and how you felt about them, and doing art projects about them, and California's test scores plunged the first rank in the nation to at or near the worst as children were taught to try to "recognize" words by the way they looked instead of actually be able to read unfamiliar words step by step, sounding them out and recognizing them letter by letter.

This happened to my little brothers and sisters in Hawaii, too, where these teaching methods took over. They would "guess" at words but had no idea how to sound them out, so each new word was a new threat to them, and initimidating. Whereas, children taught phonics can take pride in "solving" the riddle of any word by merely approaching it systematically and sounding it out. I was never intimidated by the encounter with a new word and didn't spend any time guessing about it; my brothers, who both have high IQ's, were, and a guess that drew on previously learned words that looked similar was the only tool in their language arsenal.

Very few people these days read anymore, and I think the reason is that to people not properly trained in language, every new book is a new threat and a new implied humiliation, and slow going. When phonics-based learning was standard, people read much more, and while new books might look boring, they didn't have near the off-putting intimidation factor they do for so many people today.

[sonny black]

about 3 years ago, unfortunately I got married about 5 years ago, now with 2 children and a dog(not my wife) to support.

[MicroBob]

This is why I have WAY more than a 300BB bank-roll for whatever level I'm playing at.


FWIW, if you are hitting a really bad-streak you should be able to fight your way out of it reasonably quickly thanks to the magic of multi-tabling.

If I need to I can bear down and play 10k hands a week or more by sitting at 6 tables instead of 4.


When I have a big day or big week or something I just look at it as a positive fluctuation that hopefully has me covered for a couple weeks of total crap cards if it should come. I'm always thinking in terms of "how long am I covered for if I just stop winning".

For a little while in there, I thought I likely couldn't handle much more than 4-6 total crap weeks before I'd have to say "well, my roll is getting pretty slim AND i've got bills coming up again. time to re-assess."


But I hit some wins and now I have SEVERAL potential crap-weeks covered to the point where I feel very comfortable.


So, if my goal is 1.8BB/100 and I have a 6k hand stretch where I've been hitting all my straights and full-houses and won 8BB/100 I don't just run out and spend the cash (well, I guess a nice dinner for me and the GF is appropriate...but I don't get super-crazy....I still have my 96-chevy with 162k miles).
So if I go on to lose 4BB/100 over the next couple weeks then I'm still break-even.


I think that's where some could potentially get into trouble.
Taking the winning runs and spending some of it and ignoring the possibility that the next 10k hands could be a total nightmare.
When you're winning it is extremely EASY to not see this possibility.


But, the bigger point is that via multi-tabling you approach the long-ish run much more quickly.

Of course, this doesn't even include bonus-chasing and rake-back stuff too which is more 'certain' income.


There were some threads, perhaps in the probability forum a few months ago, on what kind of roll do you need if you are paying your bills off of it. Obviously you need way more than 300BB.
If you lose 100BB and then pay the rent and then have some sort of unexpected expense like an auto-repair or something then all of a sudden you're down to 45BB or so and you're totally screwed.


One possible way to do it which is kinda similar to how i look at it:
If your monthly nut is $2k, then you need $6k in your bank-account that is completely NON-POKER.
Whatever you have left-over above and beyond that is your poker bankroll and it would be wise to keep 300-500BB around for whatever level you are playing ($1800-$3000 for 3/6 multi-tablers for example).
So for a 3/6 multi-tabler who has no other source of income I am actually recommending something along the lines of $7k-$9k (depending on your monthly nut).

It is probably excessive, but it's pretty freaking nice to not have to sweat about every 50-100BB downswing you will have....because you KNOW that you are more than covered to give you enough time for the swings to turn around. There's no hurry.
$4k may seem like a lot for 3/6.....but if you play long enough you WILL have a 200BB down-swing. And if you drop $1200 when you only had $4k to start with then you certainly are going to feel it. Add in a stack of bills that are all due and all of a sudeen that $1200 down-swing pretty much wiped-out your $4k 'roll'.


if you somehow are minus 400BB over the course of a 3 month stretch (where you are spending your 3 mths worth of monthly-nut savings) then you certainly shouldn't have been trying to do this to begin with. There's "variance" and then there's "maybe you just suck".


I think within the worst-case scenario realm of possibility you might be able to drop 400BB over a week or two if you were running really really bad.
So this pretty much wipes out your poker-roll and now you are dipping into your monthly-nut savings.

My plan at this point would be to drop back to 2/4 (actually, I probably would have done this before it got to that point) and play for additional hours through the week if necessary while I grind my way back. I would do this after giving myself a day or two off to unwind, refocus and un-tilt-ify.

I don't WANT to play more than 40 hours a week....but I look at it as something that I really have to do if I get absolutely clobbered.


I perhaps have gotten unnecessarily bothered by those who post here and say "i just lost 50BB to total morons and it's really upsetting me."
For whatever reason, when I sit down I am ALWAYS aware of the possibility of dropping 50BB to the most idiotic of suck-outs. I don't even think I purposefully do this....I just am aware of this naturally. But it helps to go out of your way to remind yourself of this too.
EVERY time you sit down be aware that you might drop 50BB to complete morons. That way, when it actually DOES happen, you're not that bothered or surprised. You KNEW that was a possibility the whole time.


those are some thoughts on how I view the different aspects relating to variance.

in short:
- be super-sufficiently bankrolled
- don't get over-excited about your big wins
(but you can take some of that cash and look into climbing to the next level if you feel comfortable)
- be comfortable with the possibility of dropping 100BB on any given day
- discipline discipline discipline (something I wish I had more of.....but I think I'm doing okay overall)
- have fun. a lot of people think you are living a dream-life and it seems really whiny and silly to disagree.



I'm glad you brought up these issues....it was helpful for me to take all of my scattered thoughts on this stuff and write it all out.

[Sponger15SB]

MicroBob you are the man.

Nice post.

[Blarg]

Yeah great post Bob. I think the idea of having more than one full bankroll is a very good one, and pretty essential really. Heck, if your bankroll gets wiped out, what are you going to do if you don't have another one? And rent money does not count as another one.

[Il_Mostro]

[ QUOTE ]
like kicking back and watching 10 hours of football on a Sunday afternoon

[/ QUOTE ]
Dunno about the depression thingy, but wanting to watch 10 hours of football has to be a sign that something is not right
/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Dilbert]

[ QUOTE ]
Mine has gotten to the point where Jan. 1st Poker will be my only job.

[/ QUOTE ]

This could be Bad or Good for us in the zoo.

It will be bad if TT uses his extra non-stop online poker time to smack us with more of his "humour" and his alias circus.

It could be good if he did something constructive like sharing updates on his dismal weekly poker performance, and contributing real poker advice.

I wonder which it shall be. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
I am aware of what you are saying, but in a real life cash flow situation, it doesn't do you much good to have a 1.8 BB/100 win rate if you have a long losing streak when you need money for living expenses. Not to mention if you have a sustained bad run and go broke. To be fair, MicroBob mentioned risk in his posts and how if one can help it at all one should have something to fall back on.

[/ QUOTE ]

No matter what you do for a living you should REALLY strive to have one year salary in your bank account. I bet your home insurance doesn't cover it when the toilet seat from MIR crashes into your roof and it looks like the US precision bombed your living room. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I think most small business owners suffer larger risks than most of the rounders here do, mostly because their risks are so hard to quantify. Risks in poker on the other hand is really easy to quantify.

All that said, the world is still full of morons who disregard risks.

[Pokeraddict]

I lost my motivation in my day job 1 1/2 years ago after I got hurt in a car accident on the job that wasnt my fault. Good thing for poker, I got screwed by the company I gave 10 years to and since I got stable enough playing poker I even bought &lt;their companyname&gt;sucks.com to tell the world what a piece of crap they are.

What a great combo, online pro poker player and getting to tell the former employer to F off 24/7 on the net.

[Header]

Great Post Bob i have just completed a 220 BB down turn luckily ihad the bank roll to cover it, but it hurt me greatly in an emotional way suck out after suck out. I broke my laser mouse in temper. I have just turned the corner I multi table 3-6 occasionally 5-10 Full games.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I think most small business owners suffer larger risks than most of the rounders here do, mostly because their risks are so hard to quantify.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think this is a very good point too. I had completely forgotten to mention that aspect.

Everyone says of a poker-pro "Geez.....how risky. what happens if you lose?"
But fewer people say something like "geez....you own a small book-store (or bar or coffee-shop). What happens if you get no customers or if you get robbed?"

These are considered more 'legitimate' endeavors but that certainly doesn't mean there is less risk involved.

And many investors/brokers, etc have some significant risk involved in their version of 'gambling'. Especially if they are more aggressive in their trading and investments (however, this is NOT an area where I claim to have any knowledge at all).


I was working at a small bookstore for a couple of months while I was training to be a dealer. Making $6.50/hr.
Smart and very nice guy (about my age, think he was 32) who had just recently bought it because he always dreamed of owning his own bookstore. He was there 15-hours a day making the various improvements to his baby while getting very few customers.
I don't know how he did it.
Really enthusiastic/obsessive/gung-ho about it but I wasn't sure if he would be able to maintain that amount of intensity towards making it work.

They're still in business now almost a year-and-a-half later and I think he's doing decently selling some of the used-books on half.com (which I found out is an e-bay owned site for used-books only).

But it was certainly a risky proposition for him to spend how ever much it cost to buy the book-store.
And I assume there is still a lot of risk involved with just trying to maintain a business such as that.
And it certainly seems like there is significantly more work/effort involved for many of these small-business owners.


A friend of mine who was a dealer along with me is a Chinese woman (Taiwan actually) who used to own a Chinese-restaurant in Arkansas with her now ex-husband. The type where I suspect they were there from 10a until 10p 6 or 7 days a week.
After 2 or 3 years they went under and she says she would never want to try to do something like that again.


Even just working for a 'regular' company with the supposed steady paychecks have risks.
I moved to Memphis for what I thought was a decent job.
Interviewed with a couple people at the company but only barely met the owner of the company.
Well, it turned out the owner/president was a bit of an eccentric psycho and would fire roughly 1 employee every 3-5 weeks and bring in someone else (this was a small office with about 10 significant employees not including part-timers, etc). Sometimes it just depended on whom she was sleeping with (or had decided to stop sleeping with) at the time.
I thought all was well and good with my situation. Had even met with her about what I was doing well and what I could do better and was assured that the others who had been fired had REALLY screwed up and had been given every opportunity to correct things....and that if there were any serious problems with me she was determined that we could work through them and she really didn't want to let me or anyone else go.
That was our last significant conversation and 3 weeks later I was canned.
No big deal really...it happens. It's her company and if shee's not happy with my performance then she should get someone else whom she is comfortable with (not to mention that it was positively miserable there so I was better off without the stress).

So even in supposedly 'stable' work environments where you can rely on the same consistent pay-check every 2 weeks....you still have to consider the "risk" involved.
NOTHING is a sure thing.

[Ponks]

[ QUOTE ]
"If you can 6-table 3/6 you'll beat what a doctor earns in Sweden."

How much per hour total can you make by 6 tabling 3/6 holdem?

[/ QUOTE ]

Over 80k hands I've been making $60+/hr at 3/6.

I'm losing motivation at college, I have no idea what I want to do with my life /images/graemlins/frown.gif I couldn't picture myself doing any type of job really, and none of the majors interested me :/

Ponks

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]

No matter what you do for a living you should REALLY strive to have one year salary in your bank account.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think if you had that much liquid cash just sitting in your account, you'd probably be missing out on some very lucrative investments, like property.

[Blarg]

Yeah but there's a point to it being liquid, after all. Everyone decides how close to shave things on liquidity, and most people, even wealthy ones, have very little.

[Smackdab]

[ QUOTE ]
Over 80k hands I've been making $60+/hr at 3/6.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm assuming your multi-tabling and breaking down your $$won to real time hours and not table hours. I'm curious as to what your bb/100 hand rate is if you have that stat available.

[Ponks]

Sure, I'm at about 2.15bb/100. I'm getting about 450 hands/hr.

Ponks

[berya]

LOL

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah but there's a point to it being liquid, after all. Everyone decides how close to shave things on liquidity, and most people, even wealthy ones, have very little.

[/ QUOTE ]

People shave it way too close on liquidity. At the very least keep a sizeable chunk of cash in low risk investments instead of high risk/high reward investments. Especially try to avoid investing in fields that you don't really know.

I've seen quite a few poker players doing things with their 'investments' which is pretty much the equivalent of browsing Winning Low Limit Hold'em in the bookstore and then sitting down in a $100/200 hold'em game with all your cash.

Maybe I'm just too conservative.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen quite a few poker players doing things with their 'investments' which is pretty much the equivalent of browsing Winning Low Limit Hold'em in the bookstore and then sitting down in a $100/200 hold'em game with all your cash.

[/ QUOTE ]



Poker players are not the only people who are guilty of excessively aggressive/risky and completely ignorant investing plays and styles.


I'm smart enough to know that I have virtually NO knowledge of this field.

For many investors, I suspect it would be higher EV in the long-run to just have a good-old savings account at a bank (or low-risk CD's...etc etc).

[Blarg]

I remember reading or hearing somewhere that people will spend a month visiting different stores and researching on the internet to get the best $20 toaster, but they'll hear some someone chatting on the train with a friend about stocks and invest $20,000 based on that alone. Very true. Most people I know have no idea how their retirement accounts work, and at least half don't even remember what investments they're in. They ask the guy in the next desk over, who knows no more than they do, what they should do.

[MicroBob]

I have NEVER spent ANY amount of time in determining what toaster to purchase.

I have definite opinions about anyone who has actually spent a month on their toastering decisions.

[Blarg]

Maybe you don't like toast as much as some people. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I know I take forever to pick a pair of pants or shoes sometimes, and buying a new t.v., computer, or new stereo equipment takes me forever and a day.

I've definitely seen people make decisions on where to put thousands of dollars in retirement money on what their dopey friends say, many times.

[lacky]

only took me 15 min. to pick my computer. Took my time on the last one, took 25 min. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
For many investors, I suspect it would be higher EV in the long-run to just have a good-old savings account at a bank (or low-risk CD's...etc etc).

[/ QUOTE ]

Index funds. /images/graemlins/smile.gif I know that Mason hates them as they are a self-weighing strategy, but in a field where top paid 'experts' are indistinguishable from orangutangs you might as well go with the safe choice.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
in a field where top paid 'experts' are indistinguishable from orangutangs

[/ QUOTE ]


Have you been watching the 'Hot-Picks' guys on the Fox-News Channel again?

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]


People shave it way too close on liquidity. At the very least keep a sizeable chunk of cash in low risk investments instead of high risk/high reward investments. Especially try to avoid investing in fields that you don't really know.

I've seen quite a few poker players doing things with their 'investments' which is pretty much the equivalent of browsing Winning Low Limit Hold'em in the bookstore and then sitting down in a $100/200 hold'em game with all your cash.

Maybe I'm just too conservative.

[/ QUOTE ]

Real estate is a very low risk/high reward investment, IMO.

[jakethebake]

Get rid of the wife &amp; kids. Keep the dog. You'll be o.k.

[NewUser]

[ QUOTE ]
How did you get to be so good?. (Serious question).

I'm amazed at the edge young people get over a 42 yr old like me. It may be due to several huge losses I've suffered during my life. I'm so unwilling to take poker risks that I amaze myself sometimes. You, on the other hand, have confessed going thru a 400BB down fluc and took it in stride. I wonder if you could have done so if such downswing had occurred at the beginning of your 15-30 play.

I, now, believe that you can actually 8-table profitably. Congrats on your skill and dedication.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is 1800GAMBLER - new none banned account - anyhow, thanks for the nice words.

If a 400bb losing streak hit me anywhere in the first 4 months that would have been the end of my career because of emotional stress, after that i had more of an understanding of EV and how i make money from plays, results don't even matter then.

Most young guys who come here all do extremely well because we've just spent 10 years in school so we think the way to learn is to pick up a book not experience.