worrisome patterns

[turnipmonster]

so in reviewing some hands, I've noticed some patterns about my limit play that most opponents could pick up on if they watched me enough. the most troubling thing I've noticed is that I rarely checkraise without at least strong pair.

just this alone could cost me a lot of sklansky bucks against observant opponents, especially on the flop.

so, my questions:
do you sometimes take actions for balancing reasons alone (i.e. checkraising draws, etc)?
how important do you feel play balancing is to your overall EV in 6max? assume 1-2 observant, thinking opponents at the table, and the rest fish.

--turnipmonster

[imitation]

you should be CR things like overcards with gutshot potential or BD flush occassionally and frequently if they are hands like QJ...well I do...even my middle pairs and PP which are lower than top pair I might CR with an agro LP player

[fsuplayer]

try to mix it up a little, but i think that advertising and working hard to vary your play is overrated against all but the best opponents.

BTW I had trouble incorporating the CR into my game (bc i rarely do/did it in NL). flopping a piece of the board out of the blinds when you have a agg. button or LP is a great time for it. it doesnt even have to be top pair, as these players will bet the fl. draw or gutshot or overs where your hand is good the majority, even if its only mid pair.

they will usually let you know soon if they have TP or better, then you can reassess.

fsuplayer

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
the most troubling thing I've noticed is that I rarely checkraise without at least strong pair.


[/ QUOTE ]

I CR a preflopraiser if I hit any pair on flop and sometines when I hit a draw 2 (at leat as long as there isnt more then 1 facecard at flop). If he is on overcards, what can he do? He havent got the odds, have to fold turn or go for his tiny 6 outs or hope I am betting a draw (which I only do like 1/5 of all CR, which makes it inprofitable to hope for)

What are you doing if you hit a not very high pair or is sitting with pocket6s? Are you checkcalling all way? HU, if you hit anything decent on flop you have to try to win it, on flop or turn. And its easier to make him fold if you CR instead of betting out (I normally bet out if I hit a good pair or better, then I can 3bet flop and he is probably caling all way with his AQ...)

[fnord_too]

My flop CR's are usually pretty weak. With TPGK+ (assuming I was the preflop aggressor) I usually lead, c/r the turn (if I think it will get bet behind me) or lead all the way.

[J.R.]

While balancing is of some value, it far less significant that in big bet and most aren't that observant (at elast in the party 5-10 games). I check-raise a lot, but not so that my opponents can't read me as much but that's often the best way to exploit the overaggresisve tendancies of my opponents. And a lack of check-raising can be some what masked or compensated for if you are aggressively 3-betting when you get raised on the flop by the typical aggresive 6-maxer. It helps to bet out with a range of hands, but check-raising is nice if it slows down the somewhat sane opponents from taking the pot away from you everytime you chekc the flop (You don't necessarily want to slow down the overaggro ones, I look to frequently bet/3-bet against them).

I love the bet the flop, check-raise the turn play as well (I kinda hate it with a monster because it often lets people get away and may cost you the chance to 3-bet the turn - but that's another story)- usually a flop call in positon by typical aggro 6-maxer pretty clearly says not much (unless against a good player waiiitng to lower the boom on the turn), and "not much" can rarely resist bettting the turn when checked to. These guys don't get aggression factors around 4 on the flop and turn because they are getting hit over the head with the deck (and they don't slowplay amd smoothcall many flops with monsters, although there is some variation from player to player)

Check-raising a pfr 3 or 4 handed with middle pair on a paintless flop, or with nothing haadsup on a raggedy board v an aggressive raiser are other lines I like. I also check-raise a lot of draws for value on the flop, although the multiway situations where this can be done are far less common in 6-max games than in full ones.

[Grisgra]

Yep. Sometimes I'll bet out top pair or a flopped two-pair, sometimes I'll checkraise it. Ditto trips. If my opponent folds when I lead out the flop with top two pair (esp. if he was the preflop raiser), I'll *always* show -- may have cost me a bet that time, but the next time I lead out with jack + [censored], they'll be more likely to fold.

My guess is that regarding the particular play of only checkraising with a very strong hand, is that it probably doesn't happen often enough per table that it's a big tell. I would start checkraising draws occasionally, though -- especially if you've got a half-decent table image at the time. If people really are paying attention, then they'll fold even before you hit.

[turnipmonster]

thanks for the tips. I was playing 3/6, and my VPIP is still embarrasingly low, and I seem to be getting a lot of respect (i.e. semibluffs work). of course, what's probably really happening is I think I'm semibluffing but in reality I'm value betting A high /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I don't see nearly the amount of showdowns I did in full ring games, though.

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

great post, J.R. I always enjoy reading your posts.

--turnipmonster

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
I also check-raise a lot of draws for value on the flop, although the multiway situations where this can be done are far less common in 6-max games than in full ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

But when these situations do come up, checkraising your draw is a must, IMO. You'll often get a free card on the turn if you check again, and of course can lead out if you do make your draw there or on 5th.

As a simple rule, adding flop c/rs with any of the following might give you cover for your typical c/r with top pair:

-four flush with one overcard
-OESD with two overcards. (e.g. board 389, you hold JT)
-two overcards with a gutshot (I like this one less than the preceding two, but its still 10 outs)

[Nate tha' Great]

Turnip,

It seems to me, based on this post and your previous one about preflop capping strategy, that you want these games to be more advanced than they really are. While shorthanded opponents tend to be a little more observant than their full-game counterparts at a given limit, they are for the most part a bunch of loose-passive and loose-aggressive morons who aren't thinking about what your cards are at all. Just play solid, loosen up maybe a hair, and you should do very well for yourself. Sure, it won't hurt to do a little bit of randomization in spots where there isn't a large intrinsic EV difference between two plays - check-raising versus bet-3/betting with a decent hand on the flop is one one spot to try this - but you should not be sacrificing material amounts of EV for the sake of balancing.

[Your Mom]

I agree with Nate. Don't outthink yourself. Against decent players this may be necessary a little bit but against your average fish, just keep playing it straight up. You say you are only c/r top pair or better. Do your opponents catch on? Are they folding to your flop c/r or folding to your turn bet? I doubt it. You don't have to randomize much. Your typical opponent is a fish who doesn't know the difference. Now if we set up a 2+2 6 Max Game, you would surely have to make some more of these plays because your opponents are hand-reading. Fortunately, this isn't the case at the vast majority of 5/10 or even 10/20 SH games online.

[DyessMan89]

[ QUOTE ]
Turnip,

It seems to me, based on this post and your previous one about preflop capping strategy, that you want these games to be more advanced than they really are. While shorthanded opponents tend to be a little more observant than their full-game counterparts at a given limit, they are for the most part a bunch of loose-passive and loose-aggressive morons who aren't thinking about what your cards are at all. Just play solid, loosen up maybe a hair, and you should do very well for yourself. Sure, it won't hurt to do a little bit of randomization in spots where there isn't a large intrinsic EV difference between two plays - check-raising versus bet-3/betting with a decent hand on the flop is one one spot to try this - but you should not be sacrificing material amounts of EV for the sake of balancing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Couldnt agree more. Unless you're playing amazing players, focus on just playing solid poker ... variation is an advanced play thats only needed against advanced players.

[turnipmonster]

I'm sure you're right, nate, especially for the 5/10 games.

--turnipmonster