You guys keep telling me to play faster . . .

[Grisgra]

But shouldn't I wait until the turn to pop this? Or no? I feel like I cost myself some $$.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO folds, Button calls.

Turn: (6.70 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (8.70 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button folds.

Final Pot: 9.70 BB

[Guido]

I 3-bet this about a 100% of the time preflop. I would bet the flop and 3-bet when I have the chance. Rest is easy...

Guido

[imitation]

yeh 3 bet pf the rest is standard.

[Nemesis]

You're better off getting your money in on the flop most times as people freak out to turn raises much more and frequently fold to a river bet or even the turn raise sometimes.

[Trix]

Would you bet the flop if you didnt cap preflop ?

[Guido]

Yes, but that's also because I almost always bet top pair into a preflop raiser. When he has an overpair he probably thinks he can beat top pair. In general I prefer betting out and 3-betting above check-raising. Betting out and 3-betting conceals your hand more than check-raising because that's such a strong move.

Guido

[DonFacehead]

wait for turn

[ALL1N]

I think you are seriously missing value if you continually bet into preflop raisers. You are essentially giving away the effective positional advantage of being able to check the flop knowing the you'll be nearly always be able to put in a raise.

I feel that betting into the raiser should be made situationally.

[fnord_too]

I think you have to lead this flop. As it went, I don't like 3 betting here, I would rather call with the intent of leading the turn (unless the CO reraises, in which case I check the turn with the intent of check raising and trapping the button for another bet.)

If you lead this flop and are raised, I think you call if the raise comes from the button and lead the turn (so you don't lose the CO), but 3 bet if the raise comes from the CO to lock people into a showdown.

Oh, and raise pre flop.

[Guido]

I guess you aren't raised as often as I am. Most of the time I'm the preflop raiser and when I'm not I probably have top pair weak kicker in which case I prefer betting too. It doesn't happen very often that I've TPGK and I didn't raise preflop. I also said that I was talking in general, it's not that I never check-raise. I do it a lot but it's such a strong move that it's pretty easy to read. I think you are missing value when you continually check-raise. Just try it and you will be amazed about how often you get a chance to 3-bet.

Guido

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
In general I prefer betting out and 3-betting above check-raising. Betting out and 3-betting conceals your hand more than check-raising because that's such a strong move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, agree 100%. I bet a lot of flops, from bottom pair and up. Starting to check my good hands would make me easier to read.

A lot of players cant believe you are betting out from BB with 75o when 77J hits and when you 3 bet they still think you are trying to protect your weak 2pair, hoping he is on overcards.

[tripdad]

i would 3-bet this preflop first. then, lead out on the flop, hoping to be raised by the preflop raisor so i can 3-bet. if button plays for 2 bets cold, you can be sure that if he raises you on a subsequent street when a draw comes in, that he likely has you. not to say you should ever fold it, but just try to get to SD as cheaply as possible unless you make full house.

cheers!

[J.R.]

"wait for turn"

I think this is your worst move as it screams big hand- don't give them the chance to realize what you have- and kills the action on the BB streets. A flop 3-bet could be seen as a draw and earn you a turn raise, but a check-call then check-raise line is a big hand to your opponents.

You also deny yourself the chance to get mad bets in on the flop (when players are more often raising lightly and overplaying draws / semi-bluffing), and the turn is such that you open yourself up to a tougher / more exploitable decison if a straight and/or flush card comes of and there is action (not a huge concern but a concern nonetheless).

[Grisgra]

Thing is, appears that if I had just called the raise, I get the same number of bets in the pot on the flop, and I have two guys that might call me on the turn. (I don't think I would have tried to checkraise the turn with that card -- too scary for anyone who doesn't have an eight.

In any case, I'm more interested in the comments suggesting I take the lead on this from the flop, and those that say I 3-bet this pf. Going to think about that a little more before I post my response to that advice . . .

[J.R.]

I was advocating leading the flop, and I also think a preflop 3-bet is routine.

[DyessMan89]

What would you guys think about check/calling the flop, and then check-raising the turn? Not that I condone this, just want to know if you guys would think about doing this in this situation.

[kiddo]

Its ok, if not 90% did this. U have to play in a way that they will think: hmmm, what does he have.

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
I also said that I was talking in general, it's not that I never check-raise. I do it a lot but it's such a strong move that it's pretty easy to read.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how it's any easier to read than a bet. To me, checkraising a preflop raiser with bottom pair or a draw (in a 3-way pot) seems a much stronger play than betting out. When I checkraise I could be doing with with a draw, a weak pair/ace/bluff, or a strong hand. Because I do it with a range of hands, it doesn't really make me easier to read. It just seems a waste to not use the knowledge that a bet is almost certainly coming to advantage.

[Guido]

Well maybe you are one of the few exceptions but most of the time a check-raise means a strong hand. I'm not so sure if check-raising with buttom pair is the right action very often. Betting out is a better action most of the time I think. It's true that check-raising is a very strong move and because it means monster a lot of the time I don't want to tell that to them. That's why I would prefer betting out with a lot of hands and 3-betting with strong draws and strong hands. You also don't risk giving a free card although most of the time the PFR will bet out. An other disadvantage is that when you check-raise the flop, most of the time that will kill your action on the turn. But when you bet out and 3-bet you do get action because they think you have top pair but not a monster because they would never play a monster this way. So you get more money on the flop most of the time, you disguise your hand better, you keep them guessing, you don't risk giving a free card and you get more action on the turn. When you check-raise with a wide range of hands that's fine but because of the reasons I gave above, I prefer betting and 3-betting a lot of the time. At the end you said "It just seems a waste to not use the knowledge that a bet is almost certainly coming to advantage." Just try and see how often you will be raised and take advantage from that. Check-raising just because it's a strong move doesn't make it the best action. Of course you should check-raise a lot too but with a set I prefer playing it fast.

Thanks,

Guido

[brasse]

I have not been playing poker for long and there's something I don't understand in the previous post. How can betting into a preflop raiser with an overpair be +EV? With overpair I assume you mean a pocket pair with a higher rank than any card on the board.

:.:: Mattias

[Guido]

I presume I have a stong hand like a set as is the case in this hand.

Guido

[brasse]

OK, that explains it. I thought we were talking top pair.

[kiddo]

Dont know how much I have won betting a flopped flush on flop from early position and then bet/raise all way. Most players will play hard on a 3flush flop with toppair or 2pair to punish the draws, and slowplay a flopped flush. When you bet first in they will put you on anything but the flush. First when you raise again on turn they will start to think: oh no, did he flop it after all, have to call him down to see.

[Guido]

You and I think alike...

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
You and I think alike...

[/ QUOTE ]

that's me too. i lead at a lot of flops so that i can 3bet. i favor that over c/r a good bit of the time.

I tend to use a c/r on the flop more if i am attempting to isolate a lp flop lead.

Relative position depenent, sometimes the c/r is a superior move to build a pot on the flop for a draw.

i almost always lead a flopped flush and almost always get action. the times i dont, i figure that i probably wouldnt have gotten much action even if i slowplayed it.