3-handed, short stack goes all in: collude?

[burningyen]

Let's say it's 3-handed, blinds are 50/100, you and another player have 4700, and the short stack of 600 goes all-in pre-flop. The next guy calls, and you look down at 27o. Should you call in order to maximize the chances of knocking the short stack out, implicitly colluding with the other big stack? If so, at what point is the short stack too big to call?

[Klak]

i think you save money and let the big stack go heads up. 27 isnt really going to beat much anyway

[elnino12]

Do not call. If the short stack does hit his hand, now you've effectively given him another 600 chips to play with. Also...if you call with this, you're going to have to play the first caller postflop with a disgusting starting hand. Essentially, don't let the short stack triple up. Don't give the caller another 600 chips, and don't waste 600 of your own on garbage. You don't want to be at an even greater disadvantage when you go heads up, and the best way to avoid that is to toss those rags as soon as possible.

[zephyr]

[ QUOTE ]
Should you call in order to maximize the chances of knocking the short stack out, implicitly colluding with the other big stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

Implicitly colluding? Come on now. At this point in the tournament your main goal should be, "how am I going to win the most $". Addtionally, I don't think that you can assume that the other big stack is going to check this one down post flop. If he's a reasonable player he'll play his hand for its maximum value depending on the flop etc.

The question of how big the short stack is is a good one. I'd imagine the ind. chip wizards could figure this one out for you reasonably well analytically. I'd probably call up to around 750. Higher than that you're risking making the small stack into too big of a threat.

Only my opinion,

Zephyr

[Phill S]

interesting.

id look at in the case of what if he wins (occasionally he will /images/graemlins/smile.gif ), id rather he doubled through with junk that take the microscopic chance my 27o will make a difference.

a had came up last night, 5 handed, someone really short (just over 2BBs) in the BB and the big stack in the SB (folded to him) puts him all in with 53s. i like the theory that making someone run for the money is good, but this double through (the guy flipped J4 to take the hand unpaired) not only put him back in the game, it let him work his way up. he made third in the end.

sometimes not using your stack to try and knock people out is the right move.

Phill

[burningyen]

I don't follow your reasoning. I realize that the other big stack may not cooperate, but I would think a reasonable player would, up to a point. Yes, if one of you loves the flop, then it is reasonable to duke it out with the other big stack. But let's say the other big stack has KQ and the flop is AQ2. Would it be reasonable for him to bet and drive you out? I would say no. In fact, I would say no even if he saw your cards.

[burningyen]

I agree that 27o isn't a favorite to win anything. The point isn't to be a favorite, it's to minimize the chances of the short stack surviving the hand. I did a highly unscientific check of the following situations (between the short stack and the other big stack) and found:

-pair vs. pair: You wouldn't do much good.
-pair vs. overcards: You wouldn't do much good.
-pair vs. undercards: You wouldn't do much good.
-overcards vs. undercards: You make a big difference.
-1st & 3rd vs. 2nd & 4th: You make a big difference.
-1st & 4th vs. 2nd & 3rd: You make a big difference.

Is it worth the 600 in chips and the risk of tripling up the short stack? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

[hurlyburly]

That's not reasonable at all. First you have enough chips that you'd only be diminishing your own chances of taking first by losing 600 chips to either player, giving the other big stack an 1800 chip advantage over you 80%+ of the time, or putting the short stack in a chip position to play normally against you.

The blinds aren't so high that the odds are worth either risk, and a good player with 6xBB might not be making the desperation push you suspect. Even with a marginal hand this wouldn't be worth playing.

Secondly, it diminishes your skill. Unless you fell ass-backwards into those 4700 chips, why would you feel the need to make this play? You should be rooting for the small stack to double up twice on your opponent and give you a nice advantage over both of them.

Then there is the fact that if A-2-2 came on the flop, you sure wouldn't be in the mood to check it down, so why should you expect your opponent would?

[Mez]

That's flat out a bad play IMHO. You're probably an underdog here, but you're only getting 1.25 pot odds (550:700).

You're also hoping that the BB will call and check every street in order to maximize the chances of knocking out the short stack. If I were in his position with 72o and the SB called, I'd certainly get out of the way.

On the other hand, if I were in the BB with AQ, I'd raise to create dead money and get heads up with the small stack.

So the most likely result is you're going to lose this pot one way or the other and you're calling 6xBB.

[burningyen]

Ok guys, I'm convinced it's a bad idea. Thanks for straightening me out!