KK against 3 opponents

[sfbruin]

PP $30 SnG. Just sat down two hands ago, so no reads on anyone. Pre-flop raise too small? What's my play on the diamond flop?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

UTG+1 (t930)
UTG+2 (t1110)
MP1 (t745)
MP2 (t800)
Hero (t745)
CO (t785)
Button (t540)
SB (t745)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t15, UTG+2 calls t15, MP1 calls t15, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t90</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls t80, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls t75, MP1 calls t75.

Flop: (t390) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero....

[jah0550]

With 3 limpers in front of you, I would have raised more(about 125-140). 5xBB plus 3 limpers. You have to make a pot sized bet on the flop. You still have the second nut flush draw to go with the kings.

[housenuts]

raise more PF. then there will be enough in the pot on the flop that you can just go all-in with a hand like this. now it's questionable whether you should push or not.

[oscar057]

With several limpers ahead of you, I would raise pre-flop to 150. I would bet out after the flop (push if the pot sized bet is more than half your remaining chips.

[SmileyEH]

I'm going to the felt with this hand.

I dont think raising more PF is helpful. 10xBB is just excessive.

Pot size bet on the flop, call an all in/push the turn regardless of what comes down.

-SmileyEH

[Bigwig]

In early rounds, I don't mind raising a little bit extra preflop because people don't seem to understand what raises mean if they aren't big looking stacks of chips.

But raising as much as some people are suggesting seems a little extreme. This is KK. You want some action.

As far as the post flop action goes. Bet. Call reraises, even if they are all-in.

[RacersEdge]

The pot is 390...your stack is 650...I like a push on the flop...

[rjb03]

[ QUOTE ]
In early rounds, I don't mind raising a little bit extra preflop because people don't seem to understand what raises mean if they aren't big looking stacks of chips.

But raising as much as some people are suggesting seems a little extreme. This is KK. You want some action.

As far as the post flop action goes. Bet. Call reraises, even if they are all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. You don't want everyone running away from you preflop. If the flop was not suited, some of these people who say raise more would probably say the preflop raise is fine.

[Unarmed]

I thought that too...
But look a it this way.
You're not folding any better hands by pushing rather than betting the pot so why bother?
If one of them has the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif pushing will likely fold them out, but there's a good chance they call a pot sized bet, which you want.

You're all-in no matter what with this hand, but I think betting pot on the flop and pushing the turn no matter what falls maximizes your gain when you're good.

[Mez]

I disagree with the previous poster. At the PP $30 SNG, you do need to raise more than 3-5x BB in the first 10 hands, especially with 3 callers already and 4 left to act behind you. I would raise to 125, you don't want to take a 4 handed flop. I would prefer to be heads up, possibly 3 handed. If you bet any less, you must be prepared to fold KK, which most people can't at the $30 level without a flop like AQQ.

As it was, the flop was 4 handed. At this point, you have to bet, but I would not call an all in. Too likely that the fish at party poker called with soooted cards.

[rjb03]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with the previous poster. At the PP $30 SNG, you do need to raise more than 3-5x BB in the first 10 hands, especially with 3 callers already and 4 left to act behind you. I would raise to 125, you don't want to take a 4 handed flop. I would prefer to be heads up, possibly 3 handed. If you bet any less, you must be prepared to fold KK, which most people can't at the $30 level without a flop like AQQ.

As it was, the flop was 4 handed. At this point, you have to bet, but I would not call an all in. Too likely that the fish at party poker called with soooted cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're saying that if you bet more preflop you don't have to be prepared to fold KK? Changing how much you bet preflop isn't going to change the flop. Giving someone credibility for a flopped flush every time is just foolish. Also, who's to say someone that will call 90 won't 120? You shouldn't be too worried about people calling with suited cards as each person has a 6% chance to make a flush by the river, less if diamonds are distributed amongst the others. This flop was all one suit, but most of them aren't and gauging your preflop raise on this result is not going to help you.

[TheDrone]

I agree with going to the felt, but why just a pot-sized bet that commits your stack and just gives a caller the odds to call again when you push the turn? Push now and get maximum folding equity.

[sfbruin]

I ended up pushing all-in on the flop. I got one caller who turned over A4 diamonds for the made nut flush. In retrospect, it wouldn't have really mattered if I made a pot-size bet or pushed all-in, I would have lost all of my chips either way. I'm not so sure that a flop size bet would get out the lone ace of diamonds though. And I wouldn't terribly have minded if he flipped over a lesser made flush, allowing me to draw to the nuts.

[NegativeEV]

You played this fine. With 3 callers, a preflop raise of 6xBB is fine, but be prepared to fold to an Ace flop if you have multiple callers.

On the flop your push is good. A smaller bet criples your stack and has the potential to create a multi-way pot to the river. If you bet less and the first player to act after you calls, the remaining players will likely come along (pot odds). The last thing you want is all three others to come along so shut this down by pushing now. You'll generally still get one caller, but can limit the field.

Well played.

[Mez]

[ QUOTE ]
So you're saying that if you bet more preflop you don't have to be prepared to fold KK? Changing how much you bet preflop isn't going to change the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, but it will change the chance your hand is good after the flop. The purpose of your raise should be to limit the # of opponnents taking the flop. I wouldn't want to take a flop with KK 4-handed. It plays much better 2 handed. I'd rather raise significantly preflop. Fact is, or my strong belief is, people on a $30 Party SNG are pretty loose, you very well may get called with any two suited cards.

[ QUOTE ]
Giving someone credibility for a flopped flush every time is just foolish. Also, who's to say someone that will call 90 won't 120? You shouldn't be too worried about people calling with suited cards as each person has a 6% chance to make a flush by the river, less if diamonds are distributed amongst the others. This flop was all one suit, but most of them aren't and gauging your preflop raise on this result is not going to help you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not giving someone credit for a hand to beat KK with that board is more foolish. Sounds like your discounting the possibility that you're beat. My thinking is that the more hands you're up against, the more likely someone caught on this draw.

This is a fair flop, not a great flop for you. You have an overpair and a *draw* to the *second* nut-flush. You can very well be behind here. And I believe I said bet out, but be prepared to drop the hand to a significant raise. So I'm not saying to check-fold, but bet for information. I wouldn't commit my whole stack to this hand.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

If you bet less and the first player to act after you calls, the remaining players will likely come along (pot odds).


[/ QUOTE ]

With what though? He has the K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif The A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif calls, Hero wants any other diamond calling because he's beat that way regardless. If you're worried about J9/67/97 lurking then I see your point, but it isn't the type of flop (given the PF action) that I'm worried about straights with. If it were JT4 or something, then sure, push as KQ is a very likely holding...

Gad, why am I debating this....just push and get it over with.
Sorry /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[rjb03]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So you're saying that if you bet more preflop you don't have to be prepared to fold KK? Changing how much you bet preflop isn't going to change the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, but it will change the chance your hand is good after the flop. The purpose of your raise should be to limit the # of opponnents taking the flop. I wouldn't want to take a flop with KK 4-handed. It plays much better 2 handed. I'd rather raise significantly preflop. Fact is, or my strong belief is, people on a $30 Party SNG are pretty loose, you very well may get called with any two suited cards.

[ QUOTE ]
Giving someone credibility for a flopped flush every time is just foolish. Also, who's to say someone that will call 90 won't 120? You shouldn't be too worried about people calling with suited cards as each person has a 6% chance to make a flush by the river, less if diamonds are distributed amongst the others. This flop was all one suit, but most of them aren't and gauging your preflop raise on this result is not going to help you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not giving someone credit for a hand to beat KK with that board is more foolish. Sounds like your discounting the possibility that you're beat. My thinking is that the more hands you're up against, the more likely someone caught on this draw.

This is a fair flop, not a great flop for you. You have an overpair and a *draw* to the *second* nut-flush. You can very well be behind here. And I believe I said bet out, but be prepared to drop the hand to a significant raise. So I'm not saying to check-fold, but bet for information. I wouldn't commit my whole stack to this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems like you're just stating the obvious here. Of course the more hands that are out there, the more likely the diamond flush is out there. You seem to be overly afraid of two suited cards. What is the difference if their two cards are suited? They aren't going to flop the nut flush every time, barely at all. Getting someone to pay to draw for a flush is where you make a lot of money in poker. Of course, there are other hands you would rather have while making them pay. You're saying that these players are very loose and will call with any two suited cards. Well, if you know for a fact you will get action on a huge raise, then go for it. I'm not against that. Also, I wasn't saying there's no way you were beat on that flop. I'm just saying more likely than not you're still good and should bet at it and not slow down just because there are three diamonds out there. Unlike you, I play KK for value not to limit the number of opponents out there.

[Mez]

I think we're arguing two different things:

1 - The effect of a larger raise preflop with KK. I very much prefer to get heads up or 3 handed. In most games, I would agree that the 10x BB is a bad bet. In this game in particular, I would think its ok.

2 - Post flop play. You mention that your hand is probably good on the flop, and I agree. But its also very likely its not good also, hence my thought to bet out for information.

============
"Unlike you, I play KK for value not to limit the number of opponents out there."

I don't know if you're referring to preflop or post flop. Pre-flop I agree that I don't mind seeing a flop, albeit with limited opponents. I don't see it as a value play to tkae a 5 handed flop with KK. In my experience, you're likely to get trapped with a hand like that.

Post-flop, I agree that you bet for information.

Just out of curiosity - what site/levels do you play on rjb03?

[rjb03]

[ QUOTE ]
I think we're arguing two different things:

1 - The effect of a larger raise preflop with KK. I very much prefer to get heads up or 3 handed. In most games, I would agree that the 10x BB is a bad bet. In this game in particular, I would think its ok.

2 - Post flop play. You mention that your hand is probably good on the flop, and I agree. But its also very likely its not good also, hence my thought to bet out for information.

============
"Unlike you, I play KK for value not to limit the number of opponents out there."

I don't know if you're referring to preflop or post flop. Pre-flop I agree that I don't mind seeing a flop, albeit with limited opponents. I don't see it as a value play to tkae a 5 handed flop with KK. In my experience, you're likely to get trapped with a hand like that.

Post-flop, I agree that you bet for information.

Just out of curiosity - what site/levels do you play on rjb03?

[/ QUOTE ]

The value of KK certainly does go down with so many players seeing a flop. If 5+ players are routinely seeing the flop to 5x-6x raises, then by all means go ahead and bet larger as I believe that playing for value and playing to limit the field cross paths with a certain number of players seeing the flop. I'd like to see about 3-4 players including myself in the flop, preferably 3, but don't want a family pot. In my experience you get paid off more this way than getting heads up only to have the other player fold to a reasonable bet postflop (too loose preflop and no "miracle flops") without a good hand being made by the flop. I agree that you must be able to get away from KK more often in these situations (more players) as well to avoid going broke early. This flop is not too favorable or common for KK when you do actually get it but it does happen and is one of those flops you need to bet out to limit the field likely by pushing, not just for value as it is somewhat likely you are already behind or could soon be behind with so many draws out there. Guess I'm just saying that if you isolate one exceptionally loose player you aren't going to get as much value post-flop as you would with several loose players.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]


Quote:
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If you bet less and the first player to act after you calls, the remaining players will likely come along (pot odds).



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With what though? He has the K The A calls, Hero wants any other diamond calling because he's beat that way regardless. If you're worried about J9/67/97 lurking then I see your point, but it isn't the type of flop (given the PF action) that I'm worried about straights with. If it were JT4 or something, then sure, push as KQ is a very likely holding...

[/ QUOTE ]

The more players in the pot, the lower KK's chances of taking it down. Simple. If any diamond with a paired kicker catches two pair, you lose. If any PP catches a set you lose. Etc. The bigger the pot, the better the pot odds for each incremental caller, and incremental callers are not desired.


<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>Gad, why am I debating this....just push and get it over with.</pre><hr />

I'm in.

[Costanza]

Preface: I'm a weak-tight noob and I already know that.

&lt;/flame suit on&gt;

But when it's still this early in the tournament and you think you have a good chance of outplaying people later, why not check and take a free card instead of taking a chance on KK against 3 callers?

[lastchance]

Cause your hand is probably good, and you can really earn some equity here.

I half-pot it here, call an all in 60-70% of the time. You're able to get more people all-in with naked Ad and Top pair this way. If you go all in, the only thing you're doing is eliminating hands you want to call.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

The more players in the pot, the lower KK's chances of taking it down. Simple. If any diamond with a paired kicker catches two pair, you lose. If any PP catches a set you lose. Etc. The bigger the pot, the better the pot odds for each incremental caller, and incremental callers are not desired.


[/ QUOTE ]

But incremental callers are fine if they're making a mistake by calling. Say I pot it, and assume the first check has the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif so he calls, getting 2-1. Fine. If the other 2 villains have 1 diamond each as well they can call getting 3-1 and 4-1 and Hero loves it, because they're drawing dead.

I already posted why I don't think straight draws are likely so I'll rule that out.

If the other two players both have pairs, don't I want them to try to draw to their set/trips/two pair with only 3-1 and 4-1 odds? They're making a pretty huge mistake if they want to draw to their 2-5 outs whatever the case may be.

I do agree that the turn complicates things, as Hero's opponents can make incorrect calls on the flop which put them in position to make correct calls on the turn given his stack size.

Not really sure how to incorporate that issue into the flop bet. If anyone has comments on how one should be thinking of that in general terms I'd appreciate some help.

Anyway, I'm really nitpicking at this hand, but only because a major leak in my game (and one of the toughest parts of NL to master IMO) is maximizing my take when MHIG.

[Mez]

I agree entirely with that post.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
But incremental callers are fine if they're making a mistake by calling. Say I pot it, and assume the first check has the A so he calls, getting 2-1. Fine. If the other 2 villains have 1 diamond each as well they can call getting 3-1 and 4-1 and Hero loves it, because they're drawing dead.

If the other two players both have pairs, don't I want them to try to draw to their set/trips/two pair with only 3-1 and 4-1 odds? They're making a pretty huge mistake if they want to draw to their 2-5 outs whatever the case may be.


[/ QUOTE ]

Other callers are not fine even if they are making a mistake by calling. J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif could call if your bet was called and the pot odds were large. 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif likewise. Large PP's could also call if the pot is large and their call is small vs. the pot. You are definately right that you are the favorite against any one of these hands, but if they all come along you are NOT likely to win the pot. The chance of one of these players catching two pair, a set, etc. is great when you have a 4 way pot to the river. You will likely still be the favorite of the 4 players, but your percentage chance to win the pot will likely be less than 35%, and you can't afford that in an SnG. Run some scenarios with these possible 4-way pots on twodimes.net and check out your expected win percentage. Not worth it in a SnG format.

Push the flop, take the HU action that it will result in (or be happy to take down the pot uncontested).

[Unarmed]

Gotcha.
I think I just need to get fully out of the ring game mindset.

Thx.