Incorporating reverse implied odds into my game.

[jedi]

I was re-reading some books yesterday and ran across the concept of reverse implied odds. I seem to understand the concept on paper, but I've never really figured out how to incorporate this into my game.

[Warik]

Correct me if I'm wrong here guys.

Implied odds is the concept that, when faced with the decision of calling a bet and you don't necessarily have the appropriate pot odds to call, you figure that if you do make your hand you will be able to extract the missing # of bets from your opponents on later streets, thus making it a +EV call.

REVERSE implied odds would mean that you are more likely to LOSE additional bets if you do make your hand.

Some examples:

A non-nut flush draw on an already paired board. If you make your flush, you might make someone else's bigger flush. If you make your flush, someone might already have a full house.

The idiot end of a straight. 56 on an 89X board. If a 7 hits, you're vulnerable to a bigger straight.

You're asking about incorporating reverse implied odds in your game. Technically, you DON'T want to do that. You want to avoid situations in which you're faced with reverse implied odds. When faced with a bet and you have a non-nut flush or straight draw, don't only consider what hand YOU'LL make when your card comes, consider what hand your OPPONENTS are likely to make as well.

[wabe]

Looks correct, sir.

[MaxPower]

I think you are wrong Warik. Reverse implied odds usually refers to the situation where you have a made hand which might be best but has little chance of improving if it isn't. You have a situation where you are likely to lose the maximum if you are behind and win the minimum if you are ahead.

I'm not entirely sure how to incorporate this into my game except that when the pot is small you should probably fold these hands when bet into if there is any chance you are behind. I would imagine this is even more important in no-limit than limit.

[shadow29]

Correct.

Incorporating reverse implied odds into your game can be as easy as folding top pair in a small pot.

Ex: 92o in BB, you get a free play. It's heads up (2 SB). Flop comes 9xx, double suited. You can safely fold to 1 bet because you'll be drawn out most of the time and when your hand is good you'll win only a few BBs (at most) and when you pay off better hands you'll lose more.

[theghost]

IIRC, reverse implied odds has to do with incorporating future bets you will call on later streets as part of your pot odds calculation, like needing to see two streets for a backdoor draw.
(maybe a bad example, as you'll only call a 2nd bet if you make the 1st draw)

[TimM]

My idea of a reverse implied odds situation was that other players are getting implied odds from you. Lets say you have a decent made hand, and are up against a drawing hand that will beat you if it improves. On later streets, you will not earn any more bets when the drawing hand fails to improve, but the he will earn extra bets from you when he does improve. So it's important to make these drawing hands pay as much as possible before they get to see whether they make their draw or not.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Correct.

Incorporating reverse implied odds into your game can be as easy as folding top pair in a small pot.

Ex: 92o in BB, you get a free play. It's heads up (2 SB). Flop comes 9xx, double suited. You can safely fold to 1 bet because you'll be drawn out most of the time and when your hand is good you'll win only a few BBs (at most) and when you pay off better hands you'll lose more.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, this example is straight from SSH, and is fairly obvious to me. What about the same hand with A9 in the BB instead of 92? Now you have TPTK, but it's still vulnerable to overcards coming.

The "when to fold" when I actually have a hand is giving me some problems here. I'm thinking maybe I should look closer at some of these examples.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, this example is straight from SSH, and is fairly obvious to me. What about the same hand with A9 in the BB instead of 92? Now you have TPTK, but it's still vulnerable to overcards coming.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're still vulnerable to overcards, but with A9o there's a much higher chance you have the best hand now and since you have an A, it's one less overcard to worry about.