NL PP $50buyin hold'em hand

Hi all, the following hand came up. I raised AQ preflop in NL $50 max buyin on Paradise, and flopped top pair with a flush draw. I bet around the pot. Turn was another Q. I decided to get fancy and underbet (I wanted people to call). Then I get screwed on the river! Should I have called his all-in bet on the river?


Also, the right move was to move all-in on the turn. If called, then so be it, I got him when he is a HUGE underdog. If he folds, good also. By underbetting the turn, I gave him huge implied odds. In this case, my correct move was to fold (not give him the implied odds of calling his all-in river bet). Is this correct? Any thoughts on my play here? Thanks!


- Tony


Game #00000000 - (blinds $0.25/$0.50) No Limit Hold'em - 2002/03/30-00:00:00

(CST)

Table "Silver Sands" (real money) -- Seat 1 is the button

Seat 1: Player1 ($56.50 in chips)

Seat 2: Player2 ($183 in chips)

Seat 3: Player3 ($40 in chips)

Seat 4: Player4 ($65 in chips)

Seat 6: Player6 ($73.50 in chips)

Seat 7: Player7 ($83.25 in chips)

Seat 9: Player9 ($36.75 in chips)

Seat 10: Player10 ($46.75 in chips)

Player2: Post Small Blind ($0.25)

Player3 : Post Big Blind ($0.50)

Dealing...

Dealt to Player6 [ Qc ]

Dealt to Player6 [ Ac ]

Player4 : Fold

Player6 : Raise ($1)

Player7 : Fold

Player9 : Call ($1)

Player10 : Call ($1)

Player1: Call ($1)

Player2: Call ($0.75)

Player3 : Fold

*** FLOP *** : [ 5h 8d Qh ]

Player2: Check

Player6 : Bet ($4.50)

Player9 : Fold

Player10 : Call ($4.50)

Player1: Call ($4.50)

Player2: Fold

*** TURN *** : [ 5h 8d Qh ] [ Qd ]

Player6 : Bet ($8.50)

Player10 : Call ($8.50)

Player1: Fold

*** RIVER *** : [ 5h 8d Qh Qd ] [ Td ]

Player6 : Bet ($7)

Player10 : Raise ($32.75)

Player6 : Call ($25.75)

*** SUMMARY ***

Pot: $98.50 | Rake: $3

Board: [ 5h 8d Qh Qd Td ]

Player1 lost $5.50 (folded)

Player2 lost $1 (folded)

Player3 lost $0.50 (folded)

Player4 didn't bet (folded)

Player6 lost $46.75 [ Qc Ac ] (three of a kind, queens)

Player7 didn't bet (folded)

Player9 lost $1 (folded)

Player10 bet $46.75, collected $98.50, net +$51.75 (showed hand) [ Tc Th ] (a

full house, tens full of queens)

If you fold to that river card given that action, you're going to get bluffed out of your pants. That's not a folding card unless you have a strong tell on the opponent. Of course, being online, you can't have a tell. However, if you know the player well enough to know he wouldn't raise with less than a straight given that board, that's the only time you can fold.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Hi Greg,


Thanks for the post. But lately, everytime someone's majorly overbet/raises the pot (usually all-in) to my river bet or check, and I decide to call with a hand like the above (a decent hand where I suspect the other player has a better one), the other player in fact DOES have a better hand! Keep in mind this is low limit .25/.50 blinds, $50 max buyin games on Paradise.


Should I be folding more? Or am I being too results oriented? People don't usually make all-in bluffs on the river (in the situation I described above, it would be a straight/flush/or full) without the goods, I am finding. Thanks!


- Tony

When i first read it i thought you meant you had a flush draw, to go with top pair top kicker. If you did have this hand there is nothing wrong with a smallish bet as you are a pretty good chance for best hand and best draw.


As it was you need to shut out the draws or charge them heavily. You have a very susceptible hand. What if a heart comes on the river? Do you call? Do you fold? Either you open yourself up to be bluffed out, or you pay off a draw. As it was the card that killed you was an unexpected one, and you really can't avoid paying this bet off.

So are you saying he should have over bet the pot?In most cases that early in the hand, I don't like to overbet the pot but I think this case I might have liked it better.


KC50

Play the player, of course.


However, just because you're running bad, you can't let that affect your decisions. If these players only ever bet big or raise on the river with the nuts or close to it, then of course fold medium hands. But, if they're just doing it to you, it's more likely just a run of bad luck, or they're playing you differently than the others. It's probably the former, but if it's the latter, try to figure out why, and take advantage of it.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

I'm going to focus on the river and ignore the other mistakes.


In a typical game, I've found that this is an easy laydown on the river.


Most no limit players have no balls whatsoever. It's the sad truth. The fact is unless you are playing against very tough players or hyper-agressive idiots, you will never show the winning hand in this situation. Your opponent has hit the river.


I know most players will disagree with me on this. Most players will say that folding here is insane.


But you should fold. Especially in those online games. They are full of beginners and beginners rarely make big bets without a big hand.


And if you are facing the occasional player who is actually capable of making this move without a hand that can beat yours, well you should know that about this player already. You should be able to figure that out about him within 20 minutes. Folding here is a WINNING play in the long run vs. an unknown player or a typical online player.


This goes against the opinion of a lot of experts who post here, but I've lost the pot every time I've called in this spot.


Remember, I'm talking about when you are facing a typical player in a no limit game. Against a very tough player, or a known over-aggressive player, you must call.


natedogg

nate-web@thegrovers.com

A backdoor flush draw coming on the river is not a card that would scare me in this situation. I would probably have called the bet because I would have thought it was a bluff with a busted draw. However I do agree with natedog about internet players. You bet the river and they still raised you big. Not a lot of internet players capable of a bluff here. Knowledge of opponent is important here. Most internet players are passive/straight forward. If this player was in this category then I would have folded no matter how unlikely the card seemed to help my opponents hand.


I would have played the hand in the following way: Raise pot preflop. Bet pot on flop. Overbet pot on turn because of the large amount of drawing cards that could complete on river. Check call/fold river depending on nature of opponent and how much it is to me, I might be all-in at this point,(I haven't kept track of bet sizes). I would lean towards calling unless against a straight forward or passive player. What do you people think of my play?

Natedogg wrote "This goes against the opinion of a lot of experts who post here, but I've lost the pot every time I've called in this spot".


JGM wrote "I would have played the hand in the following way: Raise pot preflop. Bet pot on flop. Overbet pot on turn because of the large amount of drawing cards that could complete on river. Check call/fold river depending on nature of opponent and how much it is to me, I might be all-in at this point,(I haven't kept track of bet sizes). I would lean towards calling unless against a straight forward or passive player. What do you people think of my play"?


I'm right there with you both. Now, I'm talking online here...I'm no expert either but I have lost the pot every time in this spot as well. Except twice...once when, {like you both said}, I did call an over aggressive player who was on a stone cold bluff. The other was when I flopped top set and and an over-aggressive player went all-in after making trips on the end giving me an easy call.


However, I think this is why I have not shown a profit as yet playing online NL. I have routinely called only to see a better hand.


On the turn he bet $8.50, less than half the pot! I think he should have bet at least half of his opponent's remaining stack who had the most $ and the better play would have been to bet enough to put them both all-in. Unless either has 55 or 88, he's way ahead here. So if he bets enough to put his opponents in, now they have to decide to call with the worst hand. If this was P/L I would have bet the pot in a flash. Yours or anyone elses thoughts here???


KC50

I agree with you completely Natedogg. If Tony had checked on the river it's a different story but once he bets and gets raised all-in he is looking at a monster. Easy, routine laydown against a bad/mediocre player. I would even say this is a possible laydown against a strong tricky player. Not many good players will get jumpy with an open pair on the board. If someone is going to put a move on you it would have been on the turn, not on the river after you have been showing strength from the get go.