Total beginner here couple of questions.

[Radio]

Hi im quite new to poker and have been playing on ladbrokes poker rooms at the micro limit tables. I plan on buying the internet hold'em book as my first book then go from their. I have'nt quite got a full grasp of the maths and odds yet or all the poker slang. But iv managed to atleast break even while playing on ladbrokes. My first question is this: Iv been using texas calculatem poker calculator to help me asses my chances on each hand. Is this a good program for a beginner to use while not fully grasping the maths of the game yet? Also it provides you with percentages like 65% chance does this mean that its saying the hand will win 65% of the time?

I have also had the following conversation on another forum, what do u make of what he is saying?

"I have won a good amount of money online. I am a bit apprehensive as of late, however, with the multitude of uncanny beats that I have taken. I do believe that on multiple occasions I have run into players utilizing programs such as Vexbot which, imo, have made online poker a very risky means of playing Hold 'Em"

me : "what the hell is vexbot?"

him : "It is a program designed to beat human beings at the game of Texas Hold 'Em.

Have a look at the link here:

http://www.poki-poker.com/history.html "

me: "I just did a search on it, from what i can make out its a poker trainner that u play against to improve your game. U cant use this in online games to win yourself money can u? I mean surly the big companys like ladbrokes ect would be able to detect such software or every one would be doing it. How woudl they use such a program to beat u at poker if uv run up against them? And if so why dont u use it also"

him:"Go to my above link. As far as using it, yes, you can and people do, quite effectively I might add."

me : ?

him : "Through research I found out about the program. Also had a friend who had also been a "victim" of Vexbot. He plays 15-30 tables and was getting bad beat to death because of this program."

[BradleyT]

[ QUOTE ]
Also had a friend who had also been a "victim" of Vexbot. He plays 15-30 tables and was getting bad beat to death because of this program."

[/ QUOTE ]

So the worlds smartest poker bot does nothing but give bad beats? Sounds just like how the fish play.

[scott1]

Hey Radio

As to your questions:

Buy a book. Do this soon. Read it and think about the lessons while playing. You'll find god suggestions for beginner books on this site.

As for the calculator, that does not take into consideration the style of play of your opponents. Take it's calculations into your consideration, but following them exactly is not always the best play. Also, it will slow your development in learning poker. When you are comfortable lose this crutch.

As for poker bots, no one around here takes them seriously. No evidence exists of a poker bot that can beat the game consistently.

Spend some time putting "poker bot" and "calculatem" and other topics that interest you into the Search function above. There aren't many poker topics that haven't been discussed ad infiniutm here on the 2+2 board in the past.

Good luck

[RydenStoompala]

Your concerns about evil programs are unfounded. You need to do a lot of reading, not a little. Dont start with an online poker book. They tend to be lower quality than the legitimate books. Start with the Theory of Poker and read others. Forget about ghosts and conspiracies. It's all crap.

[aargh57]

I've also been wondering the same thing about poker programs. While practicing with Turbo Texas Hold Em, the program offers advice based on odds,EV,etc. and I thought "Jeez, it's only a matter of time before people start using these on the computer to beat the games." As for scott1's comments that there is no evidence that exists of a poker bot that can beat the game consistently are you sure? I mean no offense by that, just that in some books that I've read they say different. For example, in HPFAP p.153 Sklansky/Malmuth say "For instance, theoretically you could program a computer to play expertly with proper game theory tactics and randomization so that heads-up nobody could beat it. However, that same program would not beat a bad player out of as much as is possible because it would be assuming the other guy is playing well." Also in "Positively Fifth Street", McManus talks about a programmer that created a program (I believe it's named Loki, don't have the book here to check) that was able to beat the low limit games.
Just to head off a little criticism:
1) I know that the HPFAP says "theoretically" and "heads-up", but is it that much of a stretch to say that it couldn't be done.
2) I realize that "Fifth Street" isn't a poker instructional book but it was thouroughly researched by a guy that did happen to get 5th place in the WSOP.

I'm not saying that I'm an expert on this subject or that there's any proof that a program that can be used by players is helping them beat the game. What I am saying is that it is something that new players are concerned about. As someone who is planning on playing a lot of internet poker soon I would just like a little more reasurance than "no one around here takes them seriously." Perhaps there is a previous post that deals with all of this and there's some rationale behind dismissing these programs. Anyway, I'm sorry if I came off as attacking your post, I don't mean it that way. It's just a concern that I share with the original poster. If I'm proved to be naive or conspiratorial, great! Sometimes a little meal of crow hits the spot.

[KenProspero]

[ QUOTE ]
Also in "Positively Fifth Street", McManus talks about a programmer that created a program (I believe it's named Loki, don't have the book here to check) that was able to beat the low limit games.


[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly suspect that one could program a computer to play basic poker and beat many of the low level games in the long run. (My guess is that TTH could beat some games).

Isn't the better question whether there's a program that will beat someone who's good enough to consistently beat the low level games?

[aargh57]

I strongly suspect that one could program a computer to play basic poker and beat many of the low level games in the long run. (My guess is that TTH could beat some games).

Isn't the better question whether there's a program that will beat someone who's good enough to consistently beat the low level games?

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm not so sure that that's the real question. If a program comes out that will help players play better and all they have to do is buy it for $50 isn't that in itself cause for concern if for no other fact than it will make the games harder to beat. Also, if they do have programs that will beat the low limit games how long before one can purchase it and let it "auto play" with your bankroll. Imagine a guy on 10 different sites playing with the program while he plays golf. Even if the program doesn't maximize what a really good player can do in an individual or even 2 individual games it would surely make up for it in volume. I'm sure I'm being a little paranoid but, hey, there's a lot of smart computer guys out there.

[RydenStoompala]

[ QUOTE ]
He plays 15-30 tables and was getting bad beat to death because of this program

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry. This is complete and total horse crap.

[greedy4chips]

I completely agree that this is complete hogwash...perhaps he got bad beat because he was unable to concentrate on the 15-30 tables like he should.

[bigdmajor]

Perhaps it's better to offer a beginner advice instead of telling him he's full of sh!t.

My 2 cents is this:

Take comfort in the fact that everyone is in the same boat as far as the possibility of poker bots. If a successful poker bot comes along, it will be BIG news. So, I'm sure you'd hear about it unless you live under a rock.

I don't know much about Vexbot, nor any other specific program, but consider this. No program can accurately account for randomness. The best a program could ever do is play according to set stats. Guess what? Humans can too. A program will never be able to facter things like tells, or personalities of opponents. (Yes, you can even tell these to some extent online). Therefore, I feel a program will never be better than a human.

As for the "bad beats" stuff:

I had a similar opinion when I first started playing online too. It seemed to me that more st8s and flushes came than statistically plausible. However, if you keep track you will see that they are in the statistical norm. Why the disillusion? Consider this. Online you play at a much faster pace (especially if you mulitable). Therefore, your frequency of normal bad beats will go up as well. Could it just seem like you're having more bad beats then?

Keep your chin up, and don't forget that the average fluctuation in poker is 300bb /images/graemlins/wink.gif

take care

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Keep your chin up, and don't forget that the average fluctuation in poker is 300bb /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey I appreciate someone like you actually bothering to answer a beginner's questions. The responses that were somewhat rude don't help anyone.

One thing...
300 BBs is not really a "normal fluctuation". It's a very large one that occasionaly will happen. But by no means the norm.

Of course it all depends on your variance. Still, I would end up needing a lot more tylenol (not to mention a stiff drink or 2) if I was taking 300 BB swings on a consistent basis. Kind of a nitpick, but I wouldn't want a beginner to get scared off by that number! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

300 BBs are a good standard bankroll for a beginner to have, however. You're always nice and safe.

Btw, I do agree with your explanation of the "bot issue" to the original poster.
There are lots of people watching out for it. It effects all of us online players, so I have no doubts that if a bot that really worked against good players surfaced it would be exposed quickly.

Good luck in your poker education, Radio! It's not very glamorous, but I think you will find most of your reading very interesting.

Another poster suggested that you should read "The Theory of Poker" by Sklansky. I agree with that. But you probably shouldn't start on that book before you have read some of the more basic poker books. /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Radio]

well iv just read through internet texas holdem and found it quite good, But in calculating odds and that while my move is timeing out quite hard. And its a limit book and im starting to find limit at my micro stakes quite boaring as im only winning a couple of $ every so many hands then loosing it again when i make a mistake. Whats the next book up from the one i read which covers more of the NL limit play?

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Whats the next book up from the one i read which covers more of the NL limit play?

[/ QUOTE ]

My first thought is Super System, by Doyle Brunson (and others). Some people might tell you that this book is out of date and it is in some areas. But, I feel for someone new to the game it will still offer more than you can digest in one reading. You should get plenty out of it.

There is a lot of material out there about Poker. Read a lot of it, but make sure it's quality stuff. Maybe after you have read Super System you'll want to move up to The Theory of Poker or HFAP. I know you are more interested in the NL side of things, but HFAP has a lot of deep thinking about holdem between it's covers.

Perhaps after all that you can read Super System II along with the rest of us when it debuts. It should prove an interesting read if nothing else.

Oh, and after you have read all of those books...
Read them again. /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[FatMan]

The general consensus in this series of posts is that "Poker bots can never beat a human." That is what they said when computes started challenging chess masters. IBM's deep blue machine beat Gary Kasporov. It did so because it was able to analyze millions of positions and choose the best path. Computers will have an advantage in Poker. The program can analyze the cards and determine the percentages for every single possible combination. Of course Poker is a game of incomplete information so in the short term luck will be a factor, but in the long run, the percentages will be with the computer. Of course the program that beats the humans will not come from some guy coding in his basement, but from a group like IBM. Poker bots if programmed correctly to follow the mathematically perfect strategy will beat humans over the long run because they never make mistakes, they never get tired, they don't let anything distract them.

[AngryCola]

*Yawn*

This has been talked about to death. The poker bots issue is a non issue for the time being. The comparisons to chess do not relate to poker. I'm not saying that there couldn't be some sort of basic bot out there in the near future. But, you should really work on your game if you couldn't beat it. The problem with making a bot for poker is that poker is a game full of context. This has always been difficult to teach a computer and will continue to be for some time.

I won't repeat anything more about this subject as it has been dealt with so many times in the past.
/images/graemlins/spade.gif

[FatMan]

Sorry, I bored you. This is the first discussion of poker bots I have run across since I am a newbie. I relate this to computer hackers since I am in the IT field. Most hackers are 15 year olds who download programs and have no clue on how they work. But they can wreak havoc on unprotected systems if you are not prepared. Most of the people who are interested in poker bots are probably those who have no clue how to play poker, but want to take advantage of the other fish out there.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I bored you. This is the first discussion of poker bots I have run across since I am a newbie.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry if you took my comments personally. I admit I did not look to see how new you were to the forums.

My distaste for the subject is due to the fact that in 2 days another thread about bots will be posted. After awhile, even you will get bored by the redundancy.

Enjoy the forums! /images/graemlins/spade.gif