capping preflop

[turnipmonster]

fairly common situation of me openraising, a sane player (in 5/10 6max? really? /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) 3 bets and everyone else folds. it is quite apparent that I either need to loosen my capping standards significantly, or never cap in this situation.

does anyone never cap in this situation? if you do cap, what's the lowest pair/paint you cap with?

--turnipmonster

[Schneids]

I cap with hands where I feel doing so will make post flop play substantially easier. This range of capping hands depends on the trickiness/straightforwardness and aggressiveness of said opponent, and also whether I'm in position or out of position (while favoring making more caps when out of position).

QQ and JJ are two hands I will always four-bet. AK I will a lot too.

[Nate tha' Great]

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(while favoring making more caps when out of position).

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I disagree with this pretty vehemently. The problem is that the cap out of position effectively commits you to taking the first action on the flop in the dark.

[Schneids]

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(while favoring making more caps when out of position).

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I disagree with this pretty vehemently. The problem is that the cap out of position effectively commits you to taking the first action on the flop in the dark.

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Says who?

A cap preflop followed by a flop check looks pretty scary and you'll often see the flop get checked behind by the in position opponent.

Besides, I'm not like saying "go cap your KJo after the button 3-bets your CO open raise." Most of the time you should still be playing fit-or-fold when your marginal hands get 3-bet.

[Nate tha' Great]

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Says who?


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Ron Gardenhire.

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A cap preflop followed by a flop check looks pretty scary and you'll often see the flop get checked behind by the in position opponent.

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To what effect? His taking a free card? You losing your folding equity?

I'll confess that I haven't quite developed to the point where I'm willing to explore play nodes that involve a lot of checks first to act heads up on third street after taking the last aggressive action preflop. I'm sure that there are spots where it is optimal to check-raise, check-call, or check-fold the flop when you have the lead, but I don't think there are a lot of them, and I don't think they usually have that much more EV than bet-fold bet-call bet-3bet sequences. It would be a lot of work to get the balancing right and avoid information leakage and I'm too lazy to do that right now.

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Besides, I'm not like saying "go cap your KJo after the button 3-bets your CO open raise." Most of the time you should still be playing fit-or-fold when your marginal hands get 3-bet.

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Well I'm happy to cap with AQo or KQs or 88 or whatever a certain percentage of the time out of position when one of the following considerations is met:

1) I think my cap is for value (somewhat frequent),
or,
2) I think my table image is strong (becoming more frequent),
or,
3) I think my opponent is scared of me or generally weak-tight (rather infrequent)

In general, however, I think "loose" caps are more problematic when you're out of position given the aggressive nature of this game.

[Chobohoya]

Nate, I'm curious as to where you do draw the line. We're talking about a sane player here, we'll call him VP$P < 24 and pfr% > 10. Now he's sane, so he knows that our raising standards are about right for this game, and he's limiting his 3-bets to something he thinks is ahead of our range of hands for an open raise. I think in order for the cap to have value here, it's got to be with premium hand, Jacks or better and AK(s).

I agree that it's pretty silly to cap then check the flop, even if you "miss". Checking to me could only make sense if you've just flopped the nut straight or something similar, and he's the type of guy who will hold tenaciously, on the turn and river, to an incorrect read made on the flop.

Thinking more about this, preflop it might be one of those situations that 2+2 authors talk about being not worthy of discussion. Just play premium hands against a tight raiser, end of story.

[turnipmonster]

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I think in order for the cap to have value here, it's got to be with premium hand, Jacks or better and AK(s).


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if this is true, then I think it's much better not to cap at all in this situation. capping simply gives up too much info about our hand.

--turnipmonster

[turnipmonster]

btw I disagree that it's not interesting. to me poker gets really interesting when you have to worry about info leakage and stuff like this. also, capping in some scenarios with less than premium hands may have a lot of value. say I openraise with AJs and you 3 bet me with AQ. I cap, and we both miss the flop. if you choose not to call me down because of my cap then you make a mistake and thus I profit.

obviously an easy thing to take too far, but I am wondering if people think there is value to something like this.

--turnipmonster

[Chobohoya]

Hmm. I didn't say it wasn't interesting, it definitely is. I was basically thinking "aloud"-- does this situation come up that much, is it one of those situations Mason or Feeney dismiss? My inclination is to say no, but at the same time, I try to avoid sitting with players I know to be TAG. Actually, if I have to, I've lately been trying to figure out whether it's optimal to sit to their left or right, given the choice. It seems possible that I should just not sit at all, despite the ridiculously large average pots at that particular table.

Back to the original question: For me the interesting part is trying to figure out a sane player's 3-bet standards. For instance, has this person identified me as a fellow TAG? If so, they could open up with a much greater range of hands to raise me with. Your hypothetical example with the AJs is great, that's why I've lately been sitting on the right of the few tight people I see in the 6-max. I think it depends on the nature of their post flop play. If they're more inclined to laydown to a continued aggression, then capping with a much wider range of hands is necessary.

I think you're right that if they won't back down, then maybe never capping against them is good, because most raising hands aren't worth a cap against a player with reasonable 3-betting standards. Actually this could be really good for table image. Since playing this way will mimic a heads up match, you'll look like a maniac to the table, however briefly. Course, given most 6-max players, they'll probably not notice.

[meow_meow]

I think it is very opponent-dependant. For LP opponents, who probably have JJ-AA or AK to 3 bet, and might call down with AK unimproved, capping is not going to be as useful as it is against TAG or LAG opponents, both of whom may be 3 betting with things like AT, A9s, 77, 88, and will fold more often when they miss.

[turnipmonster]

the specific case I'm wondering about is other TAG players.

[joker122]

Ever since chris daddy cool posted a preflop scenario in which he open raised 99 and was 3bet by LP I've been convincing myself that capping with any pair is usually correct. Note: his scenario was in party 15/30 full.

This was my reasoning:
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I like capping because it often lets him incorrectly fold overs on the flop, which can save a pot or two for you. Also, you're pushing a small edge when you cap because statistically speaking it's likely you have the best hand. Although, the edge is so small it's probably not even worth mentioning.

Also, retaining the initiative is huge. If he has a hand like TT or JJ and you auto bet an A or K high flop it's going to be almost impossible for him to call.


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Does anyone think that reasoning is sound? To answer your question, in theory I'll cap with pairs that most people will just call, which includes 77-JJ.

[Your Mom]

Also, retaining the initiative is huge. If he has a hand like TT or JJ and you auto bet an A or K high flop it's going to be almost impossible for him to call.
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Not true in the 5/10 SH Games that I play in. If there is only one overcard, they will call with any medium to big pair (88-KK) the whole damn way.