88 - overpair at showdown - confusion ensues

[btspider]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, <font color="666666">5 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

standard.

Flop: (5 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Thin the field, likely current best hand, etc.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

The board paired and the 3-flush is out. No folds. I really was unsure which of my 3 actions to choose. A raise may earn a free showdown or fold the weakest single flush cards above mine. I may have the best hand or I may be behind or have too many cards to dodge on the river. I chose the option in the middle and hoped the river action would help me decide what to do.. poor reasoning..

River: (10.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Call the first bet if I came this far and fold when yet another new player shows aggression? I called closing the action figuring I had one of them beat and hoped the other was trying to steal a ragged board.

Final Pot: 16.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 16.50 BB, between UTG+1, Hero and BB.</font>

[edthayer]

How about 3-betting that flop. If SB has the guts to bet out on the turn after the 3-bet, you might want to give him credit.

[StellarWind]

Seems like an easy reraise on the flop with the likely best hand. You can't count on SB betting the turn with a flush draw or a pair of sevens.

Having called the flop, you should raise the turn. You are not going to lose this 75% of the time. This is a value bet.

BB's checkraise on the river is very strange. He has no reason to expect a bet once SB checks. I can accept the idea that UTG+1 is betting because SB relinquished the lead and that BB is bluffing. Did you hesitate before calling the first time? Did UTG+1 hesitate before betting? I would make both calls.

But notice how you are paying on the river for your failure to bet your hand properly on earlier streets. You have to payoff because you never represented any strength so their bets could mean anything.

[btspider]

I thought about 3-betting the flop, but I figured this was a wait until the turn and then push your equity type of hand since I can't protect my holding on the flop or the turn (if SB caps then bets the turn or they all check to me after I 3-bet). On the turn, when no one folded on the 3-flush, I passed on pushing what is likely the best hand since I really had no idea where I stood.

There were no indecisive hesitations on the river by anyone.

If 3-betting the flop is the way to go, how do I respond to a flop cap given various turn cards and assuming the same turn action?

e.g.
board pairs (3-flush or not) - I can call closing the action if I think I have 4 outs.. would I fold if the top card pairs and call if the deuce pairs?

3-flush without pairing - fold? SB's relative position check-raise-cap doesn't look like he's pumping a flush draw and the callers will be holding lots of outs to my marginal hand.

offsuit overcard - fold? am I ahead of SB often when he caps and bets the turn?

If the flop isn't capped, and they check to me, do I bet and fold to a check-raise on most turn cards?

Lots of questions, I'm trying to see the full postflop line here. Comments appreciated.

[cnfuzzd]

First, i agree with everything stellerwind said. Quite an easy three bet on the flop. Not only do you have the best hand, but its very important to find out how people react to this three bet.

As for your other questions...

If the board pairs a seven, and SB bets out, i have a tendancy to call down, but it might still be correct to fold.

If an A or K comes, and Sb bets out or checkraises, i would probably fold when appropriate.

Pairing an undercard would entail me going to showdown

A flushcard would do little to influence me unless someone displayed lots of strength.

Caveat Emptor.

I tend to call down way to much with the upper-middle pairs.
Especially in murkey situations like this.

peace

john nickle

[cnfuzzd]

Ok. I understand now where Spiders dilemma is on reraising the flop.

First: Waiting to raise on the turn is a play that you typically make both when A) you are trying to face the field with bad enough odds to make them either fold or make a large mistake, which raising on the flop will not do, and B) there are a number of outs which can cripple your hand, and no way to push the hands that those outs fit with out on the flop due to the nature of these players. All of this is done to protect your hand from all those little draws that small stakes players like to play.

However, this simply does not apply to this hand. First, you had no choice but to bet the flop, or you would have given a free card. When you bet, the player to your right made it two to go. So, the field has already been faced with two bets, and made thier decisions. Given your relative position to the flop raiser, it is unlikely that you will be able to face the field with two cold again, and even if you did, the pot is now large enough that most draws are not making a large error in calling. Even worse, you are faced with being checkraised by a virtually unknown hand, or giving away a free card.

So, due to this, protecting your hand has gone out the window. It is now tiime to think about VALUE. You are more than likely ahead here, and its time to get money into the pot while you are. You know that most of the field likes their hand, and that you have the best hand. RAISE RAISE RAISE. As an added benefit, there is a chance you will get the SB, who likely has top pair, to cap the flop, and face the field with two cold again, which may, but is not likely to, fold some out.

So why not wait until the turn to raise? Not only does betting/raising the turn do little to protect your hand, but it gives you all the right information at the wwrong time. It is almost never correct to raise for information, because any information you gain is usually worth very little, no matter how helpfull it may be. Since it is so worthless, you want to pay as little as possible to get it. Raising for information should be done on the cheap streets, so that you can use whatever you glean to maximize your perfromance on the more expensive streets.

I know you middle pair Nay-Sayers are out there talking amongst yourselves about how half the deck can cripple your hand, and why raise when there are two chance two have this tragedy befall. Fear Not!!! By 3 betting on the flop, you are sending out very strong information about your hand. Its likely that you can use this later in the game to either force your opponents to reveal the strength of their hands, or obtain a cheap showdown, which is something these hand love to get when a scare card pops up. Waiting to raise on the flop does none of this, AND lets someone take advantage of you blindly raising the turn like a drunken cnfuzzd.

there entity, i posted more.

peace

john nickle

[StellarWind]

There is another major objection to waiting until the turn to raise.

It usually won't work. Obviously raising the turn when SB has the best hand is not a good idea. So assume he has a small pair, flush draw, or OESD. Is he going to bet the turn for you? Not very likely. Not with a draw. Probably not with a seven after the inevitable bad card comes (they're almost all bad).

And there you are. You passed up your flop value raise for nothing.

This simple objection to the turn raise play has wide application and is often overlooked. Always ask yourself: will they bet the turn when I'm winning or just when I'm screwed?

[btspider]

Thanks for the responses all. That helps a lot. I think a tend to overuse my relative position. Here I was hoping SB would lead the turn and I would have an "easy" fold if someone raises the turn. Weak and 'optimistic' thinking that I should have an easy decision. Middle pairs unimproved have been giving me some problems against larger fields.

Results:
UTG+1 shows Q2 and is good.
BB shows 43.

I forget the suits offhand.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
This simple objection to the turn raise play has wide application and is often overlooked. Always ask yourself: will they bet the turn when I'm winning or just when I'm screwed?

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point! I think I will tape this advice just above my monitor for when I am playing online.

[cnfuzzd]

Shameless bump to celebrate the fact that i made the "favorite posts" thread again. Yes, i very rarely got praise as a child, and have been desperatly seeking some sort of grand life-evaluation ever since. Thank you.

peace

john nickle

[Jonny Melon]

Excellent thread. Am I the only one that raises this pre-flop? I think that helps define your plays post-flop and makes a hand like this much easier to play.

BTW, my personal feeling is that waiting until the turn to raise in a small, multiway pot is almost never a good idea. It really is a "big, multiway pot" concept.

Jon

[Alobar]

I dont like a preflop raise in this spot with 2 limpers already in front of you and many players still to act.

[Alobar]

easy flop 3 bet, for all the reasons that have already been stated.

the way you played it, I would have raised the turn, Im betting you still have the best hand, its pretty obvious no one has a 2 or a made flush, and if the SB had an overpair to yours he raises PF. You are a head here, raise.