its a bit nutty....

hey all- im new to no and pot limit got suckered in by paradise and the image of large pots and outplaying opponents, well i am not that good, and have been making mistakes, mostly with the betting.

im in mid postion with the most cash at the table - 134$.

one limper calls, it is all fold to guy on my immediate right who raises to $5, i call with QJc, and its folded to the limper who calls- this seems to be strange in this game, most players who limp in for .50 wont call for a large raise (proportionally so). so three see the flop for 5 bucks with me on the button (now)

flop comes Kc 9c 7s. pretty good, gutshot and a flsuh draw- first in checks... to my right bets 5$, i raise to 10, going for a free card. i think it is more valuable to do this than in limit because the bet you may be saving your self could be huge. any thoughts on that?

turn comes 6s and it gets checked around.

so now i need a ten or a club. the river is both. yep i got the str8 flush, how sweet it is.

now the turn being checked to me and now the river as well i want an idea of a how much to bet here. obviously they put me on a draw if they are paying attention at all. the pot now is about 50 dollars and i want to keep at least one guy in. but i want money too.... but i also want to show my hand..... its hard to resist.

so i bet 10 bucks, so i have to be bluffing only 1 in 6 times for them to call correctly. first guy calls all in for 1.25 whoops hadnt noticed he was almost out of cash. should have lowered the bet to try to get both of them huh? second player folds... first guy had pocket kings for a floppped set...

mostly i think i played this hand correctly, pretty st8 forward hand, but i would appreciate thoughts on the betting

i will post some bad hands tomorrow, its late and imtired

thanks

tom c

Actually, the famous free card play is much better at limit than PL or NL. Usually, it is obvious. At limit that's OK because when you hit they might pay you off anyway for the size of the pot (relative to the size of the bet). In big bet, a standard bet will be something like 50-100% of the pot, and if it's obvious what you've got, they won't pay you off. Thus, you'll be putting in more money when behind, and getting paid less when you hit.


The only good reason to make this play is if you're also going to do it when you're not on a draw. Now you can throw them off to your advantage.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

> gutshot and a flsuh draw- first in checks... to my right bets 5$, i raise to 10, going for a free card.


I probably would either have raised bigger to give myself a chance to take the pot right there (despite your huge draw you're still a slight dog heads-up against a king, and you sometimes have to raise big on draws if you want to get payed off when you hold top set) or would have flat called to invite the 3rd player in as you certainly couldn't expect him to call your raise here.


Of course, the player with KK made a huge mistake by not reraising you on the flop (after all, what did he seek to acomplish with his teaser bet of $5) esp. with flush and str8 draws out there.


cu


Ignatius

Congratulations on your win!


1st.


In my opinion, most of the time calling early raises with a draw hand is a effective way to lose chips. I would have folded pre-flop.


2nd.


The move for the free card seems reasonable. However, if I was the person with top set, I am re-raising to make you pay for the draw. Ofcourse, with top set and that flop, I,m betting more than $5 anyway to protect my hand. (a bunch more)


3rd.


Not really sure about the river bet. EP is broke so you want to trap LP. I would probably bet a small amount and hope for the best.


-A-

you're play on this hand is typical of limit players who are playing big bet poker for the first time.


A) calling the $5 with QJs is questionable at best (unless dealing with deep stacks). there are plenty of opportunities to see the flop with hands like these for fifty cents or a dollar in these games.


B) the free card play is just not the great play it is in limit, as greg already explained. you also open the betting back up for the original bettor. what if the guy who bet $5 was the one with top set? you make a baby raise for a free card, then he comes back over you for all your chips.


C) "so i bet 10 bucks, so i have to be bluffing only 1 in 6 times for them to call correctly"--your reasoning is sound here, but the majority of players in these games don't think like that. unless you know the oppoents well and can accurately gauge how much they will call, i think it's better to bet big. why not give them a chance to pay you off big? bad players usually think you're bluffing when you bet big because that's what they do. they also underbet the pot with their strong hands because they don't want to scare anyone out.

Hey crAAcked, thanks for your input on point 3. I am also trying to learn NL after years of limit play. /images/smile.gif


In this case, one other player was pretty much all-in so can't be bluffed. So by trying to represent a bluff by betting big, what could LP call with? A straight, a smaller flush, the nut flush, others? It seems to me the only thing he would call with is the nut flush. Ofcourse if he thinks your on a true bluff, he would call with anything. But if I were him, I would not think it was a bluff because of the all-in in front. This all-in has already implied he has something by raising/calling.


Generally though I like the idea of betting your hand to get paid.


-A-