Taj 3/6 Middle Pair

[junkmail3]

I can't remember the action exaclty as it was saturday, but it was very similar to this. Table is very loose, relatively passive. Several players play every hand, and Villian says things like "I can't see putting two bets in when you haven't seen the flop yet" after I raise. At which point I say, "I like to gamble, so let's gamble!", and then he calls.

I'm talking about 6 to the flop regularly and 8 is not unusual.

villian often calls to river with Middle Pair as well as high card and sometimes bets it.

I'm MP1 with 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, Hero calls, all fold to button who calls, SB folds, BB(villian/loose+weak+passive) checks. All are loose passive with excption of the button who will raise better hands.

Flop: 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
BB checks, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, all call.

Turn: Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif
BB bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero ...?

[StellarWind]

Painful situation. The pot is 8 BB if I have counted correctly. This is a strange way to play a four, a normal way to play a queen, and a common way for a fish to play a small pair such as a five.

You could fold and that might be right, but this pot seems big enough to fight for. I suggest that you raise the turn with the intention of not calling any more bets unless you improve. The idea behind spending 2 BB this way instead of calling down is to force out the Button's overcards and either charge UTG+1 the maximum for his draw or scare him out. If someone 3-bets or bets the river after this show of force I think you can assume it's not your pot and fold.

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
Painful situation. The pot is 8 BB if I have counted correctly. This is a strange way to play a four, a normal way to play a queen, and a common way for a fish to play a small pair such as a five.

You could fold and that might be right, but this pot seems big enough to fight for. I suggest that you raise the turn with the intention of not calling any more bets unless you improve. The idea behind spending 2 BB this way instead of calling down is to force out the Button's overcards and either charge UTG+1 the maximum for his draw or scare him out. If someone 3-bets or bets the river after this show of force I think you can assume it's not your pot and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's a good suggestion. Wish I would have thought of that.

I called. button called.

river: T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif BB bets, UTG+1 folds, (I see button looking ready to fold after I act), so it makes it a very easy call on the river, putting BB on 5's. So, seeing the buttons likely action I call with 66 and win the pot. (Villian did in fact have 57 to give him 5's.)

So, that's the boring part.

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What happens if I raise the turn, button folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River - T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero ... ?

Do I value bet this? Or check, happy to avoid a river decison/fold?

[StellarWind]

Check behind. A major idea behind raising the turn was to get a queen to give you a free showdown by representing a four. Don't give it back just because it worked. That would be a case of believing your own propaganda. UTG+1 may also have a queen or ten--another way to lose.