A Hypothetical question

You are in the Paradise Poker .50-1.00 No limit game. Your stack is around 250. UTG limps, then you make it 5 to go with a pocket pair. You get called by about 3 players. Then UTG re-raises you all-in for 77 more. This player is relatively tight. You haven't seen any big moves out of him, especially pre-flop, but he seems solid. Three of the other four players have roughly the same amount of chips as you, and one has only about 80. What hand do you need to call here? What about re-raise (hands other than AA).


My question is this: what hand is the limp re-raiser most likely to have? Would you lay down QQ here? What about KK?


This scenario came up in a game, and a discussion followed. The initial pre-flop raiser folded his hand (as did the others) and then asked the limp re-raiser "could you beat KK?". Everyone joked that there was no way the player folded KK. I was thinking this: WHY NOT? With 20$ or so in the pot, I might raise 77$ all-in with AA. In fact, I know I would- and I'd get called on occasion by AK, KK, QQ and who knows what else in these games... I actually think that the player might have folded KK....

IMO, in big bet poker, knowing your opponents capabilities from every position and scenario is more important than the cards you hold. It appears you haven't played with him/her until this session so you don't really know what he is capable of raising with here.


However, you do know that "This player is relatively tight. You haven't seen any big moves out of him, especially pre-flop, but he seems solid".


UTG raises all-in for $77 into 4 players. He is wanting to pick up $20 (plus the blinds) without a flop. And if someone does call (most likely only one player) if he wins he will double his stack. What hands should he do this with? Most likely AA or KK, maybe QQ, JJ or AKs. He could even have a middle pair if he thinks no one will call w/o a premium hand. Or, could he even be bluffing? Yes there are those that do here. Sometimes I'll ask myself what hands would I make his move with here? If he thinks there's a decent chance no one will call without a premium hand here, it wouldn't matter what he held would it?


What hands should you call with? Remember, you are now UTG (which is a good thing sometimes). I'd really have to put this opponent on a premium hand, so I would just call with AA or KK and hope I get an over call. Everything else is in the muck. Be careful with KK if someone else just calls and they have you covered.


KC50

I was with you until I read your statement:


"I would just call with AA or KK and hope I get an over call."


I might not mind an overcall with AA, but I'm coming over the top with KK (or folding) to shut everyone else out. I am hoping UTG has a smaller pocket pair and I do not want anyone with an ace to overcall.

Michael,


That's why I said "Be careful with KK if someone else just calls and they have you covered".


I don't think anyone with less than AK will even think about an overcall when UTG check-raised all-in and EP smooth calls. If EP has KK and makes a substantial raise or goes all-in, AA is going to call anyway.


Yours is a point well taken and depending on the opposition, I will go over the top with KK here also.


KC50

I was the original raiser in this hand, and there were 3 callers, not 4, before UTG raised all-in. I had KK, and I FOLDED. I know many players may view this as weak, but I had built up a nice stack- and absolutely put this player on AA- I did not know enough about him to think he would do so with any other hand. Though I thought it was "possible" I had the best hand, I put myself in UTG's position and asked myself, with 20$ in the pot against large stacks, would I re-raise my remaining 60 or 70 dollars with AA? My answer was ABSOLUTELY. What about other hands? Less Likely. With other hands I'd rather see the flop cheaply and hope to flop big in a multi-way pot, giving myself the chance to double or even triple up. Of course, with AA and a possibility of getting called, UTG would be a favorite to possiblly quadruple his stack if the original raiser called his all-in bet. That is, had I called, it might entice everyone to call, as my stack was deep, and so were theirs. Had I re-raised, he would be heads up and a huge favorite tp double up. UTG would also make this raise with KK, but I have KK, so this player probably doesn't.


When I asked the player "if he could beat KK", I was hoping to get a read on him to decide whether my action was correct. There is only 1 hand that he could have that would beat me, afterall. From his reaction, I'd say he had either QQ or AA, but I am definitely not losing sleep about this fold. If I had to do it again, I would do the exact same thing without hesitation.


The thing is, after I "joked" that I folded KK, the reaction of the table was hillarious: as if folding KK was out of the question- a horrible play. UTG seemed a bit irritated though. Not defensive, just a little irritated. Had I been able to show the hand as I folded, I would have. I was very, very sure that he had AA. If he didn't, he bluffed me out of 5 bucks- big deal. One could even say he bluffed me out of 77$, but in this spot, I feel AA is a given for this player, and knocking down my stack significantly by "hoping" he doesn't have AA did not, for a second, seem right.


I myself have made the all-in pre-flop raise with AA many times- even as the first raise under the gun. I have gotten called enough times to make this a profitable play with a huge upside. My thinking was that this player did not have enough of a stack to do this with any hand except AA, and if he did do it with AA in this spot, his hand had HUGE potential. At worst he wins the 20$, which would improve his stack by 25%.


He knew that 4 players had him covered by 3 or 4 times, and that no one at this table was shy about putting money in the pot. If he had QQ, 88, JJ, or any more vulnerable hand, he had to be worried about calls. He could only be sure he was ahead with AA, and KK was unlikely because of my holding. The only hand he doesn't have to be worried about, no matter how many calls he gets, at least in theory, is AA.


He had been playing few hands and seemed to be a solid, tight player. Why would he risk his stack with lesser hands against players that could easily call his bet with hands that could easily beat a hand other than AA? Other players at the table suggested that he "would never go all-in pre-flop with AA", "he'd make it 20 or so, then bet big on the flop". BUT, this would be a huge error: If an 80$ stack makes it 20 to go pre-flop against monster stacks, he is going to get called by ALL OF THEM not for his money so much as for the other players' money. He will end up in a 4 or 5 way pot, and will not be able to protect his hand with his remaining 50 dollars. This would be a DISASTROUS way to play AA in this spot, in my opinion. If he raises all-in with AA, he puts every other player in a position to make a large mistake, and eliminates the chance of making a mistake himself. Of course, you could make the argument that this move was correct for him with ANY holding, but if he is making raises like this with hands other than AA or KK, I will get him eventually.


During my "joking" that I had KK, another player asked if we could play heads-up. I said "sure, but heads-up is very different". Just because I lay down KK once doesn't mean I am "playing scared" or won't put money in the pot: I just prefer to do it when I am in control of the hand, and when I make a read, I trust myself enough to go with it...

I like the laydown very much in this spot. I have a hard time laying down KK against players I don't know well, but if your read is that he has AA than muck the kings and let him have your five bucks.


Who cares what the other players think about your play? Piss on them. The same fools who say, "he wouldn't go all-in with AA there", are the same fools that call you when you go all-in with AA.


These are also the same fools that lose their entire stacks when they have AA because they invite people into the pot, then are not good enough to lay them down. (Usually followed by intense bitching and moaning about how they can't beat bad players)

I wasn't criticizing laying down KK in this spot all. You provided much more information this time than you did originally. I did say if you called with KK to be careful of an overcall that had you covered, remember. That should have told you something of my feelings of KK. But realistically, KK is the 2nd best starting hand you can pick up in HE and I think most opponents would have made the same move (all-in for $77) with KK, QQ and JJ. Another thing is, that if you are the only caller, your implied odds are nill. So if you believe your read to be that strong, then muck those boys!


KC50

i like the laydown.


you have a tight player who first limped, then raised all in. the two most likely hands he will do this with is AA or KK. he can AA 6 different ways, but since you have KK, he can only have KK one way.


so odds are he has AA. even if he does have KK, you are calling to chop the pot.


berj