Curious Hand

[ThorGoT]

$50 tournament. Two players gone already in first round, one on A8 vs. AK (second hand), and one calling a KQ all-in with TT when a Q spiked on the turn (fourth hand). Now this, as the sixth hand. There had been raises on every hand but the fifth. Does anyone play it differently?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed)

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG (t1010)
<font color="C00000">Hero (t1000)</font>
MP1 (t990)
MP2 (t1910)
<font color="C00000">CO <font color="purple">(Victim #1)</font> (t820)</font>
<font color="C00000">Button (t955)</font>
SB (t955)
BB (t2360)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t15, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t15, <font color="CC3333">CO <font color="purple">(Victim #1)</font> raises to t150</font>, Button calls t150, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t500</font>, MP2 folds, <font color="CC3333">CO <font color="purple">(Victim #1)</font> raises to t820 (All-In)</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises to t955 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t455.

Flop: (t2770) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t2770) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t2770) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2770

[Marcotte]

You reraise over half your stack. What are you gonna do on the flop if you get even one caller? Especially with the button calling the raise, I push pre-flop. You limped to trap them, now spring it. However, based on the rest of the action, the Button has AA.

This is similar to an example in TPFAP. Player has KK, raises an early posistion raiser and caller. Original raiser folds, caller reraises all-in. Sklansky says he saw this 3 times at the WSOP main event, each time the caller/reraiser had AA and each time the guy with KK called and busted out.

So I would have pushed to the first raise, but folded to the re-re-raise and re-re-re-raise all-in. (Well, probably I wouldn't have, but I think its the right play. /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

[NegativeEV]

Just push in on your reraise. The T500 raise has two downsides IMO:

1.) If the CO calls your T500, then button definately has the right odds to call as well. You'd rather be heads up here rather than have a 3 way pot IMO. I think the push gives you the best shot at getting HU.

2.) Betting T500 here telegraphs your hand. This betting patter tells me you have AA or KK (about 70%-90% accurate betting pattern tell on the $55 tables IMO). This may incent CO or button to call as they KNOW they'll get paid off if they hit a set. The knowledge that you are on AA or KK means my implied odds on a set are your whole stack.

[ThorGoT]

Marcotte --

Thanks for the response. Isn't this a little bit different than the WSOP hands you describe? There, the AA was in early position and called a raise, perhaps with the hope of seeing someone go over the top of the original raiser (drawn by the lure of the big pot) -- as in fact happened (in the WSOP hands). I think I've seen this play described as second hand best, or something like that; I think Doyle did it recently in a televised tournament. Here, the caller (and ultimate re-re-re-raiser) was in very late position, so there weren't the same chances of a re-raiser coming along behind, unless someone (me) was limping with KK (which can't be *that* likely). So -- before the re-re-re-raise, at least -- don't the odds of AA lurking out there seem somewhat smaller?

I'm curious -- what would you put the first raiser (re-re-raiser) on?

ThorGoT

[ThorGoT]

NegativeEV --

Thanks. A couple of questions.

(1) What would a push re-raise signify -- i.e., what hands would you do it with? Wouldn't it scream AA or KK? To be honest, I think I was rather hoping for a call, no ace on the flop, and presumably a flop push by me. The larger question, I guess, is do you play your KK for the 300 in the pot, or try for a higher chance of more?

(2) I don't think a lower pair -- say, TT -- should call my re-raise in hopes of flopping a set. Even with the chance of getting the rest of my stack -- which I agree they would get -- they still are betting 350 for a total pot of 1300 or so (my 1000 and the 300 already in), with the expectation of having to hit a set on the flop to win it. Those don't seem like good set odds to me, which I thought had to be at *minimum* 10:1.

ThorGoT

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
(1) What would a push re-raise signify -- i.e., what hands would you do it with? Wouldn't it scream AA or KK? To be honest, I think I was rather hoping for a call, no ace on the flop, and presumably a flop push by me. The larger question, I guess, is do you play your KK for the 300 in the pot, or try for a higher chance of more?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll carefully dodge the question as to what I would push re-raise with. I will say, that a reraise all in happens with many hands including 66-AA, AK, and even AQ at the $55 tables. A reraise in the manner you made happens with AA and KK generally. Don't get me wrong, you will see situations that contradict this, but this is a generality. As far as the T300 pot- I'd be more than happy to take this down uncontested with KK.

[ QUOTE ]
(2) I don't think a lower pair -- say, TT -- should call my re-raise in hopes of flopping a set. Even with the chance of getting the rest of my stack -- which I agree they would get -- they still are betting 350 for a total pot of 1300 or so (my 1000 and the 300 already in), with the expectation of having to hit a set on the flop to win it. Those don't seem like good set odds to me, which I thought had to be at *minimum* 10:1.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are roughly 7:1 to hit a set on the flop with a PP. There is already T800 in the pot when CO has to act. If he calls the T350, the pot is T1150 when the button acts. Button is getting 3:1 on this call without implied odds, and he is getting 5:1 with implied odds given knowledge of your hand. Not the right odds, but close enough that a LAG player could say "that's a big pot and if I hit my set I'll bust his AA". This isn't the biggest risk, but just something to consider.

[ThorGoT]

Both the other players had QQ -- one, in fact, had both Queens of my suit, giving him only a .01 chance to win the pot (Q high straight flush) outright. Obviously the hand worked out very well for me, and I went on to win the tournament.

[Marcotte]

[ QUOTE ]
Marcotte --

Thanks for the response. Isn't this a little bit different than the WSOP hands you describe?

[snip]

I'm curious -- what would you put the first raiser (re-re-raiser) on?

ThorGoT

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, this is a little different. On my first read through, I thought Button was the first all in. That would match the pattern S described more closely (raise - AA calls - KK re-raise - AA all in).

As to your second question, after re-reading the HH, I would put him on AA-TT or possible AK (99 and 88 if this is $10+1 or lower). Second all-in (Button) should have a higher PP (ie AA or KK).