How to go from third to first

[CraigJ]

I am fairly new to poker and have been playing the $5 single table tournaments on Party Poker. I usually play conservative, playing only the 13 pairs, A-K, A-Q, and occasionally an A-x suited. When I do get one of these pairs I think I play pretty agressive raising and reraising before and after the flop.

This works out fairly well. I would say 70-75 percent of the time I can at least come in third and get in the money. Occasionally I may pull off a second. But I have yet to get a first. My chip stack is usually way too small.

But what gets me is its usually the inexperienced players on the table who get a lot of the chips and on the $5 table you see a lot of bad players. But if two bad players are going head to head one bad player is going to get the chips and usually a lot of them.

Or sometimes they just make bad plays and get VERY lucky. I saw a guy go all in with K-K before the flop and was called by someone with a 3-2. But guess who won? Plus he went on to win the entire tournament because his chip stack was so big after that one.

So again my question is how do you go from a consistent third to first and what do you do about the bad players throwing their chips around and giving other bad players a lot of chips?

[CraigJ]

I also forgot to mention I ususally paly no-limit.

[Unarmed]

Be patient.
Steal (3xBB raises normally are fine) like a thief 3, 4, and 5 handed. (take notes on who will defend their blind, target those who won't)
Add suited connectors to your playable hands on the early rounds with position and you'll be the one doubling up early.

[ilya]

Try playing looser early. Limp in with hands as bad as KTo when in excellent position, since your implied odds are so good in the early stages -- many players will get married to top pair and hand you their whole stack. But be careful not to get married to those kinds of hands yourself. That is, for example, if you limp on the button with KTo and the flop comes K83 rainbow, be ready to release your hand if there's much action. What you're trying to accomplish by limping with a marginal hand like that is 1. hit two pair or better (two pair may be better than trips, actually, as with trips you run the danger of being outkicked, and it takes some experience to be able to lay that hand down) or 2., take the pot down when no one shows any strength on the flop or on the turn (this is where your good position benefits you most strongly).

Many players who have more experience and more success than me recommend playing very tight early on. But I think that as long as you think carefully about your position and are able to lay down marginal hands on the flop, you should try to take advantage of the maniacs/calling stations while they are still around.

Don't take this too far, though. When I say "excellent position," I mean "the button or perhaps the cutoff." I definitely do not want to encourage you to start limping with hands like KTo when you're UTG.

Also...make sure that you are switching gears appropriately as the blinds increase and the number of players goes down. To give an example of what I mean -- when it's down to 5 or 6 and the blinds are up to 50/100, hands like ATs and KJs go from being limping/folding hands to being open-raising hands (or pushing hands, depending on the size of your stack and/or position).

Also...are you playing a short stack effectively? When you find yourself under 8xbb or so, you no longer have enough chips to do any fancy maneuvering. At that point, if you put in a regular raise and get called or re-raised, you most likely can't get away from your hand anyway. So, you want to be pushing or folding when your stack is in that zone. You are happy to win the blinds and you don't want to let hands you currently beat see a cheap flop. But even at this point, you must not forget the importance of position! Say you're down to 6xbb and it's 7-handed. If you have A7o UTG, you've gotta fold. But if it's folded to you on the button or in the small blind, you've gotta push! Simple example, but hopefully you get the general idea.

[RobGW]

I love it when the fish suck out on the good players. Now the good player with KK is out or crippled while the fish who is willing to go all in with 32 has a big stack. It makes it that much easier for you to double up when you get some hands. Don't get upset by bad play. Use it to your advantage. I also agree that you should loosen up during the early rounds to try to take advantage of all the bad players who will pay you off when you hit something.

[Unarmed]

ilya, I've been folding weak kings and aces and limping with suited connectors, suited one gappers, suited 2 gappers occasionally. have you done any work to quantify what sort of stack/call amount ratio you need to play a hand for two pair/trip value alone? I've been calling with SC or suited 1 gappers if I think I can make 25x my call amount when I hit. 4% of my stack if I think I can double up, but I don't always assume thats the case.

[Baked67]

My first piece of advice is to move out of the fives as soon as you have the bank roll to do so. Take stabs at the ten dollar tables whenever possible. Coming from a guy who had to build a bankroll up from next to nothing by playing these horrible 5 dollar tournaments exclusively, it will be so so so beneficial if you can move up and get away from the terrible rake!!

But, I would say your strategy is good for the early rounds. I stay pretty tight early on to build a good image, and to just avoid getting involved with the terrible play. When the table gets down to 5-6 players, you have to switch gears and get aggressive. Now, your ITM appearances may very well go down but I'd bet yah that your ROI goes way up. That is the difference maker when you are talking about 1st and 3rd. When its folded to you in LP throw a raise out there with a hand like Ax or KJo ect.If you play too tight, you aren't going to get the stack to make a run at 1st place. Stealing blinds and pots with good post flop play are the most important skills to learn when trying to win STT'.

Most people play pretty standard ABC poker at the late levels of the tournament at this buy in level. So if its checked to you and you are last to act, try and steal the pot with a good sized bet...all in all, just play solid, aggressive poker and you'll do fine...

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
. I would say 70-75 percent of the time I can at least come in third and get in the money

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are keeping accurate records you will find this number about 75% too high.

-SmileyEH

[Grivan]

[ QUOTE ]
I usually play conservative, playing only the 13 pairs, A-K, A-Q, and occasionally an A-x suited. When I do get one of these pairs I think I play pretty agressive raising and reraising before and after the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you think being super aggresive with 22 early in a tournament is a good thing we might have just found your leak.

[CraigJ]

You may be right. I just went on Party Poker and looked at my last 10 games it was 6 out of 10 I came in either 3rd or 2nd. So about 60%

[nuclear500]

I havn't read the other posts, but I'm sure they mention it - You're playing too tight. Just because YOU are playing only the top 13 hands, does not mean THEY are.

A big problem is over coming thinking that your opponent(s) are always holding top pair. Just because they've bet into it, does not mean that.

[CraigJ]

Obviously I wouldn't play 22 as agressive as higher pairs. With 22 I would raise before the flop. If there is a substantial re-raise I would probably fold. If I get to see the flop and don't hit anything I may try a raise again, just to test the power of the other hands and hope they fold, but more than likely if the flop is not hit this hand is probably going to be folded.

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously I wouldn't play 22 as agressive as higher pairs. With 22 I would raise before the flop. If there is a substantial re-raise I would probably fold. If I get to see the flop and don't hit anything I may try a raise again, just to test the power of the other hands and hope they fold, but more than likely if the flop is not hit this hand is probably going to be folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

Still sounds like a leak. Are you taking position? and how many rasiers/limpers are ahead of you when you do this action?

Also - FYI 10 tournaments isn't a sample size. See what happens over your next 20-30.

Also - you have to vary your play. It won't hurt you much at this level, but if you are this straightforward in what you play a good player would be able to read you easily.

[Solitare]

If you are raising 22 pre-flop against more than 5 players from early/middle position you are being way to aggressive. With a small/medium pair your goal is to see the flop as cheaply as possible in hopes of flopping a set. If you are raising with small/medium pairs or calling big raises, you are leaking chips.

One of the biggest mistake fish make in the early rounds of an SnG is playing small/medium pairs too aggressively. Yes, any pocket pair will be a favorite against a single hand of any two cards, including AK. Sometimes you'll get a hand like AK to go all-in with you in the early rounds where you are a slight favorite. What will often happen, though, is you will be up against a bigger pair, or will get called by 1-2 hands and have to face a flop with a bunch of overcards, uncertain what to do next.

[threadkiller]

I'm just starting out as well, and what I've learned so far is that it's important to get a feel for when the blinds start to eat you up. I don't play at Party yet, but at Ultimate Bet I found it comes around hand #60 and at Pokerstars around hand #40 - they're different because of differences in the starting stack and the blind progression.

To get a feel for your situation, I'd write down the following whenever you get to the 5th level:
- your chip count
- your position
- how many are left
- how many flops you've seen OUTSIDE the blinds
- how many hands you've won

Then when you're in SNGs where you're doing "below-average" at this point, you can experiment (because your smaller stack is less likely to finish ITM anyway) and play a bit looser and raise a little higher in order to get your stack up to an ITM value. How to play looser, I'll leave to the others... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously I wouldn't play 22 as agressive as higher pairs. With 22 I would raise before the flop. If there is a substantial re-raise I would probably fold. If I get to see the flop and don't hit anything I may try a raise again, just to test the power of the other hands and hope they fold, but more than likely if the flop is not hit this hand is probably going to be folded.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is hilarious.

-SmileyEH

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously I wouldn't play 22 as agressive as higher pairs. With 22 I would raise before the flop. If there is a substantial re-raise I would probably fold. If I get to see the flop and don't hit anything I may try a raise again, just to test the power of the other hands and hope they fold, but more than likely if the flop is not hit this hand is probably going to be folded.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is hilarious.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you post rude and unhelpful stuff like this?

-ilya

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously I wouldn't play 22 as agressive as higher pairs. With 22 I would raise before the flop. If there is a substantial re-raise I would probably fold. If I get to see the flop and don't hit anything I may try a raise again, just to test the power of the other hands and hope they fold, but more than likely if the flop is not hit this hand is probably going to be folded.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is hilarious.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you post rude and unhelpful stuff like this?

-ilya

[/ QUOTE ]

But it is funny!....but you're right, I'm just frustrated by people coming into the forums and not bothering to use any of the literature available to them - and subsequently posting incredibly misguided stuff such as this.

-SmileyEH

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously I wouldn't play 22 as agressive as higher pairs. With 22 I would raise before the flop. If there is a substantial re-raise I would probably fold. If I get to see the flop and don't hit anything I may try a raise again, just to test the power of the other hands and hope they fold, but more than likely if the flop is not hit this hand is probably going to be folded.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is hilarious.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you post rude and unhelpful stuff like this?

-ilya

[/ QUOTE ]

But it is funny!....but you're right, I'm just frustrated by people coming into the forums and not bothering to use any of the literature available to them - and subsequently posting incredibly misguided stuff such as this.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I hear you. Sorry I went off on you a bit. I've learned a lot from your posts so I like it when you let yourself be helpful. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[poboy]

With only 10 SNG's under your belt, not hitting 1st shouldn't worry you too much right now. Reading through this thread I can already see one huge hole in your game. You should NOT raise small pairs(22-JJ) at a full or close to full table. You want to see the flop as cheaply as possible, and unless you have an overpair or a set on the flop release it. Also AQ is a limping hand during the early stages, it looks nice but has no real value. Also I would recommend for you to start with Aleo's guide, if you search the forum you should be able to find it. It outlines a simple safe strategy you can use to give yourself a better chance of winning and keeps you from beating yourself.