Stop N Go went wrong!

[rachelwxm]

Here is a hand I played last night. Since I am more interested in the idea of Stop-N-Go, I would like to incorporate it into my play and it apparently went wrong.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed)

Hero (t575)
BB (t1675)
UTG (t680)
MP (t2603)
CO (t1552)
Button (t915)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Button raises to t200</font>, Hero calls t150, BB calls t100.

Button’s min raise does not sound like very strong hand. My usual play here is to push, but I figure Button has about the right odds to call with any Ace or King here. There is 40% of chance the flop does not have overcards ace or king and it’s save to move in. And even it contains one I could represent TP as well. Mistake here?
I certainly does not expect bb to call along.

Flop: (t600) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets t100</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button raises to t300</font>, Hero folds, BB calls t200.

Is this a clear check fold facing bet and reraise? I cannot afford to bet and fold to a reraise here. Any ace will not fold here. Moving in against two guys with this flop is crazy?

Turn: (t1200) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets t100</font>, Button calls t100.

River: (t1400) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets t100</font>, Button calls t100.

Final Pot: t1600

Any comments appreciated. What’s the general fine line for Stop-N-Go?

[alittle]

Isn't this more like a Stop, Idle, and Pull Over?

I thought you push post-flop to execute the Stop n Go. You were scared by the ace that you were supposed to use to scare the others. And the wimpy betting for the rest of the hand seems to indicate that your push would have won the pot.

[codewarrior]

Why Stop-n-Go with such a premium holding?

[Cleveland Guy]

I don't think you had enough chips for the Stop and Go.

I just posted in the other stop and go thread about someone who did one wrong. The problem here is you are only left with 375.

Assuming the BB will call the min raise the pot is laying 600.

Ad in your 375 bet on the flop. The button raiser has to call 375 into a bet of about 1000.

The beauty of the stop and go is that you could win the pot on the flop and that others will lay down.

This won't happen - so with QQ vs. a min raise from late position I'd want to see all 5 cards - so just push on in pre flop.

[rachelwxm]

well, partly since I never try that before (the expectation is high /images/graemlins/smile.gif) and partly I think he has a decent odds to call with any Ace or King. I guess I just want to be tricky once and it did not work out aparently.

[The Yugoslavian]

I also have been looking for an opportunity to try a Stop N Go and have tried to talk myself into it a couple of times, /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

In your situation I think there are several problems with attempting a stop n go. #1, your hand is too good (the stop n go is theoretically done with a smaller pair) -- you shouldn't mind a call and can raise for pure value. #2, you folded on the flop -- in a stop n go you always push on the flop, otherwise it's just stop &amp; fold (there is no go /images/graemlins/smile.gif ). #3, you need to have enough chips so that when you 'go' and move allin on the flop, your opponent will be more likely to fold than he would have been preflop.

The whole point of the stop n go is to increase your folding equity by seeing a flop. It seems like it's very player dependent -- some players are much more comfortable calling allin preflop when their hand gets to work with 5 cards, but will fold on a flop if it misses them or hits them softly because there are only 2 more cards for their hand to improve. Other players will call on the flop with any piece of it -- possibly having seen it with poor cards that could have given them bottom or mid pair (and they may be ahead of your small-medium pocket pair).

I think you've gotta push in this situation preflop -- sure you'll probably get called, but you are a favorite over all but two hands (and a big favorite over most hands) -- so do you really mind getting called?

Maybe 99, for example, would be a better stop n go hand here?

[jedi]

This isn't a stop-n-go. This is a call and check-fold. The general line is call pre-flop, and push post-flop no matter what cards come.

In this case, you have a min-raiser and the BB to act behind you. You have less than 6xBB. I'd push here, get the Big Blind out and make the possible stealer decide to call for half of his chips. You've very likely got the best hand. I root for a fold from him, but if he calls, you may be facing a hand as weak as K9 or even less.

[thomastem]

Why in the world didn't you go all in pre-flop? If you take the blinds it is a strong % increase to your stack and if you are called only A-A &amp; K-K have you in trouble.

With the range of hands innitial raiser can have, the stacks at the time all in pre means either a nice % increase to your stack or a favorite against possible holding to double through.

I can't think of a situation where I'd use Q-Q for a stop and go.

[kevyk]

[ QUOTE ]
I think he has a decent odds to call with any Ace or King.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you want a call if all he has is one overcard?

You don't have enough chips for the stop and go, and your hand is a monster versus anything but AA, KK, or AK. Your opponent has walked into a bad situation by betting into your queens, and he's about to compound it by calling your all-in. Double up and get healthy.

[tallstack]

Excellent post!

I would add that trying a Stop-N-Go in the SB can work against you by pricing the BB to join in. If the BB calls, then you are pushing the flop with two left to act instead of one. This potential negative makes it much less desirable to do these from the SB.

I normally do a Stop-N-GO from the BB when I have a hand that is too good to lay down, but one that I think has a good chance of being a coin flip against the raiser. Hands like 99 and AQ are good candidates. IMO the key to the Stop-N-GO is that you increase the likelihood of taking down the pot with a flop bet as opposed to a pre-flop reraise. You need to pull the trigger on any flop here (except maybe those where you flop a monster) otherwise you have given up the folding equity from the pre-flop push without gaining any folding equity on the flop.

The beauty of the Stop-N-GO is that there is basically no defence to it. The raiser can only call when you push the flop and will have to do so usually on a flop that has missed their hand.

Dave S

[rachelwxm]

Well, I have constructed some Stop-N-Go cases based on your post, are these more proper ones?

You have 9bb on bb and late position large stack raise 3bb, it's folded to you and you have 9s, or AQo. You called and push with flop 852?

Two things I still don't understand, hope someone explain this more clearly. Why Stop N Go is better than reraising all in BF in both cases? /images/graemlins/smile.gif I understand my opponent will not fold PF if I push back, is that why SNG is better?

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]

Two things I still don't understand, hope someone explain this more clearly. Why Stop N Go is better than reraising all in BF in both cases? /images/graemlins/smile.gif I understand my opponent will not fold PF if I push back, is that why SNG is better?

[/ QUOTE ]

It gives your opponent a chance to miss the flop, which he will do a good amount of time. If someone has AK for example, and the flop misses him entirely, it'll be tough to call off a good amount of chips with no-pair.

And if he had Aces or something else like that, you're no worse off than if you pushed all-in preflop anyways.

[tallstack]

[ QUOTE ]
You have 9bb on bb and late position large stack raise 3bb, it's folded to you and you have 9s, or AQo. You called and push with flop 852?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand my opponent will not fold PF if I push back, is that why SNG is better?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your examples here are excellent candidates for a Stop-N-Go. If you push PF then your opponent will be getting 12.5BB:6BB or a little better than 2:1 on his call. It would be correct for him to call your bet with most hands that he would initially have raised with, and your likelihood of being in a coin-flip situation is high. If you delay the push to the flop then he has the same odds, but now he likely does not have the outs to make the call if he misses the flop. If you gain folding equity by delaying your push to the flop then you come out ahead.

One other point does come up since you included the flop cards in your examples. I would be careful about caring too much what the flop brings if you opt for the Stop-N-Go. You may want to hide the flop with your hand if you think it will stop you from pulling the trigger. If you do not push the vast majority of flops then the Stop-N-Go will work against you rather than for you.

Dave S

[ddubois]

I have two conceptual issues with the stop'n'go that I have been unable to get past, and I've never seen them addressed to my satisfaction:

1) It has serious FTOP issues. If my opponent tries to steal with KJ, I call and push a K-high flop with 88, then I've gotten my money in as a huge dog rather than a marginal favorite. How can that be right? I am also losing all the chips I would have gotten the time my opponent had A7s (or AJ) and would have missed all 5 streets. Thus, the possible outcomes, instead of being double or bust, become win small or bust. I would really like to see some math and some examples that demonstrate why the play is +EV versus the range of possible outcomes.

2) Ignoring the ace on the flop. It just doesn't make sense to me to ignore the amount of equity you have relative to your opponent's raising standards. As an example, if my opponent will raise any pair, any A7+, any suited ace, and big kings, an ace on the flop means my 99 went from 58% preflop equity to 36% equity on an A82 flop.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
I have two conceptual issues with the stop'n'go that I have been unable to get past, and I've never seen them addressed to my satisfaction:

1) It has serious FTOP issues. If my opponent tries to steal with KJ, I call and push a K-high flop with 88, then I've gotten my money in as a huge dog rather than a marginal favorite. How can that be right? I am also losing all the chips I would have gotten the time my opponent had A7s (or AJ) and would have missed all 5 streets. Thus, the possible outcomes, instead of being double or bust, become win small or bust. I would really like to see some math and some examples that demonstrate why the play is +EV versus the range of possible outcomes.

2) Ignoring the ace on the flop. It just doesn't make sense to me to ignore the amount of equity you have relative to your opponent's raising standards. As an example, if my opponent will raise any pair, any A7+, any suited ace, and big kings, an ace on the flop means my 99 went from 58% preflop equity to 36% equity on an A82 flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were planning on pushing pre-flop anyways, but decide to stop-n-go instead because you KNOW the other guy will call pre-flop anyways (but might fold post-flop), then the times he does hit the flop, you're no worse off anyways. You're giving him a chance to miss the flop. You act first and you can basically push all-in in the dark (don't let him know that though). Many hands like to see all 5 cards to get a better chance to win. You're trying to prevent him from seeing those last 2 cards. And if he hit the flop anyways, then like I said, you're no worse off than if you pushed and got called pre-flop.

[rachelwxm]

Bb showed A4o and took it down. I did not know that PF raiser has, probably a medium pair. I could have doubled up if I push sine I don't think BB would come along.

At least I find another leak of my play. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[gotham]

not pushing QQ when shortstacked against 5 opponents is a little bit of a leak /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[rachelwxm]

no kidding, I found I learn something new everyday since I have been here. I am sure I still have a ton of those. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
I don't think it is my normal play, just want to be cute sometimes.

[tallstack]

ddubois,

I don't have hard answers to your questions, but I do have a few thoughts.

You certainly will be betting into your opponent on flops where he has hit his hand. You will also have times where you get the opponent to fold a better hand on the flop (say you have AT and you get AJ or 77 to fold on a K high flop that misses you both). Thus, you will get your opponent to make FTOP errors as well. IMO, the key here is the probability that your opponent will fold to your flop bet relative to your PF bet. If your opponent has unpaired cards then he will hit at least one of them only about 32% on the flop (1-44C3/50C3). If your opponent has a pair then the likelihood of him having top pair or better depends hugely on the rank of the pair. For an average pair, say TT, then he would be facing overcards about 70% of the time (for some of these cases he will have hit his T, but for most of these he will not have improved). Combining these, you are putting an average opponent to a difficult decision a large percentage of the time on the flop. Since your opponent would have had a relatively straightforward decision with your PF push, then I believe that you will see them make more FTOP errors with your flop push.

I would also argue that these are not small pots when you take them down on the flop. If your opponent put in a 3BB raise and you called, then this pot is likely a significant portion of your chips. Your point is valid, though, that the pots you win are on average less than those you would win if you pushed PF. Again, I don't have hard numbers here, but I do know that the perecentage of cases where you have more chips at the end of the hand will go up with an increase in folding equity. Increasing the probability that you will have more chips at the end of a hand late in a tourney can't be that far off from ideal.

If you believe that hand with an ace make up a good percentage of all holdings that your opponent would have raised PF with (this is likely true for most any raiser), then you could choose to push any flop that does not include an ace. I know that many posters talk of this in the MTT forum.

I would say that Stop-N-Gos work surprisingly well in inducing folds in my experience. I would recommend to anyone that doesn't use them now to try them a few times and see how it works for them. Maybe they would then have a better agrument than I have now as to why they do, or don't work.

Dave S