BB flops two pair. How do you proceed?

[TripleH68]

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

SB is loose and aggressive post. Other players in the hand are passive/careful players. Do you go for overcalls here in a smallish pot? Rainbow flop has me leaning toward waiting for the turn to raise.

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero <font color="brown">call or raise??? </font>

[thirddan]

I would raise now, your hand isn't terribly strong and i don't think it is worth slowplaying, also the pot is not big enough that you have to go to drastic measures to protect your hand. Raising here will force out some people who could draw out. A raise here protects your hand better than letting players in cheap...

[joker122]

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Rainbow flop has me leaning toward waiting for the turn to raise.

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The rainbowness is why you can raise the flop.

[TripleH68]

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Rainbow flop has me leaning toward waiting for the turn to raise.

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The rainbowness is why you can raise the flop.

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Explain please?

[joker122]

You explain why you'd rather wait until the turn with a rainbow board than a non-rainbow board and we'll go from there.

[TripleH68]

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You explain why you'd rather wait until the turn with a rainbow board than a non-rainbow board and we'll go from there.

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With a two flush board I am more likely to get callers plus my bet may look like a semi-bluff. Flop raise on the rainbow board may make it incorrect for a gutshot straight draw to call, but is that what I want to do here?

[joker122]

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Are we straight on this?

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Yep, and I'm asking for you reasoning.

[TripleH68]

With a two flush board I am more likely to get callers plus my bet may look like a semi-bluff. Flop raise on the rainbow board may make it incorrect for a gutshot straight draw to call and may push out TPWK, but is that what I want to do here? A situation close to this is mentioned in HEPFAP(but top two pair) and advice is you "may want to wait until the turn to raise."

[Rocco]

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With a two flush board I am more likely to get callers plus my bet may look like a semi-bluff. Flop raise on the rainbow board may make it incorrect for a gutshot straight draw to call, but is that what I want to do here?

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Forget about getting callers, forget about winning as much $ as possible. Having bottom two pair you don't want many callers. A two-flush on the river makes people stay in, a 9 is devastating. Raise and try to get heads-up against the maniac. Always play bottom two aggressively...

[joker122]

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With a two flush board I am more likely to get callers plus my bet may look like a semi-bluff.

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It sounds like you *want* callers with bottom 2 pair. You shouldn't.

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Flop raise on the rainbow board may make it incorrect for a gutshot straight draw to call and may push out TPWK, but is that what I want to do here?

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Absolutely. Top pair, and any pair with a kicker higher than 5, has 5 outs against you, and will pick up 3 more outs on the turn assuming you don't fill. But these hands are incorrect to call 2 bets in this small pot on the flop.

I don't think you realize how weak/vulnerable of a holding bottom 2 pair is with 3 players left to act behind you.

Anyway, what I was getting at in my original post is that the fact that it's a rainbow board makes a flop raise more valuable for you because your pot equity is higher than if it were a 2 flush. This isn't to say I wouldn't raise a 2 flush board here, because I would, but with a 2 flush board there are alot more sucky cards that can come which translates into less pot equity for you. If you don't understand this (it's not a particularly easy concept for alot of people, and this is a very abbreviated explanation) read Small Stakes Holdem by Ed Miller or PM me.

[TripleH68]

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Top pair, and any pair with a kicker higher than 5, has 5 outs against you, and will pick up 3 more outs on the turn assuming you don't fill. But these hands are incorrect to call 2 bets in this small pot on the flop.

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This did register and I do see the benefits of getting this pot heads up.

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a rainbow board makes a flop raise more valuable for you because your pot equity is higher than if it were a 2 flush. This isn't to say I wouldn't raise a 2 flush board here, because I would, but with a 2 flush board there are alot more sucky cards that can come which translates into less pot equity for you. If you don't understand this (it's not a particularly easy concept for alot of people, and this is a very abbreviated explanation) read Small Stakes Holdem by Ed Miller or PM me.

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I have a decent understanding of pot equity. Have not read Ed's book yet. Thanks man.

BTW...my hand filled up on the turn and made two trips on the river. 35935.

[joker122]

So did you raise the flop?

[TripleH68]

Oh...I called the flop and got two overcalls. SB bet into me on the turn 3593 and my raise got it heads up. He was playing A9 and called me down.

[Bob T.]

I raise, I'm probably ahead, and my hand is vulnerable.

[elindauer]

Hi Triple,

If your opponents will call with just overcards for 1 bet but not 2, then calling is the way to go. The reason is that you have a very strong hand right now and don't mind taking a little risk of losing this small pot to get more bad calls. The pot is small enough that even if someone picks up an open-ended straight draw, they aren't making that much calling 2 cold on the turn. You profit when they draw to these runner runner hands, and profit even more when they call 2 cold after turning top pair.

If they are tight and careful enough that they are only calling with hands that include, say, a gutshot straight draw, then you want to raise immediately. Now they aren't making a mistake calling you on the flop and you should drive them out. This is unlikely in a typical 2/4 game though. Slowplaying this is the default play.


Good luck.
Eric

[elindauer]

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I raise, I'm probably ahead, and my hand is vulnerable.

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It's not enough that your hand is vulnerable. You have to be vulnerable and expect that raising will make the hands you fear fold. You are unlikely to fold top pair with a raise, and you want, say, KQ calling, so...

Since anyone turning top pair will now have eight outs to beat you, you'd certainly raise the flop if the pot were bigger. Note though that the eight draw they turn is right in front of you, meaning that most of the cards that you fear will be obvious. A river 9 or running jacks after a turn coldcall will certainly be a wake up call that you were likely drawn out on and you won't lose much.

my 2 cents.
Eric

[spamuell]

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It's not enough that your hand is vulnerable. You have to be vulnerable and expect that raising will make the hands you fear fold. You are unlikely to fold top pair with a raise, and you want, say, KQ calling, so...


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If you just call, top pair will call correctly. If you raise, top pair will call incorrectly.

[Bob T.]

I had to bring this thread back up for more discussion.

A lot of posters, think that waiting until the turn to raise, is a better play than raising immediately.

I disagree.

I think that if you wait until the turn to raise with this hand, you are probably missing out on value in two ways.

First, I think that you might be too conservative with your flop raises. I think that the reason you don't want to raise here, is that your usual flop raise is too powerful of a hand, so that when you raise on the flop, too many of your opponents correctly go away. I think that you should frequently be raising top pair, and a fair number of your draws, even from this early position. If you aren't, your opponents, probably correctly respect your raises, and your raise cuts down on your action. If you make the raise with a wider array of hands, some of your opponents BS detector's are going to go off when you raise, whether you have the goods or not, and you will make a lot of small bets by raising the flop.

I think that the second place that the flop smooth callers, are probably missing out on value, is that when they do raise the turn, the cutoff the field, and probably don't get enough value from callers on the turn. Any semi-observant players probably see the smooth-call/raise the turn pattern as one which shows a big hand, and so the pots you win with this pattern, are going to tend to be smaller.

I think by raising on the flop, you will get more money in the pot, so the times that your hand does stand up, you will be rewarded better.

[spamuell]

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I think that the second place that the flop smooth callers, are probably missing out on value, is that when they do raise the turn, the cutoff the field, and probably don't get enough value from callers on the turn.

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I agree, although I'm not completely sure I'm right. Would you raise this flop with top set? I would, because I think I end up getting more money in that way, but I'm not completely sure that this is right.

[Cerril]

This one's debatable only because there are three behind you and the initial bet comes from the SB. Still, I don't want overcalls from anyone with a hand that could improve to beat me too easily (3 outs or more). You'll get enough action from top pair or draws that don't make it.

(edit: I say debatable only because you might be able to get a hand like A2 or 78 to fold the turn if there are fewer bets in the pot even if it's a loose player who will stay in to the flop no matter what. But I don't think that's worth it versus the possibility of a single pair improving to two pair.

[Bob T.]

agree, although I'm not completely sure I'm right. Would you raise this flop with top set? I would, because I think I end up getting more money in that way, but I'm not completely sure that this is right.


Yes, I would. I bet and raise with a lot of stuff, so when I actually have it, I like to bet and raise because my other plays have already made playing the nuts fast a deceptive play.

[daveymck]

I think this is the biggest element of theory that is being misplayed since ssh came out. Lots of people are waiting till the turn to "protect" their hand.

The example in SSH was I beleive with KK when last to act in a preflop raised big pot, where on the flop there has been a bettor and numerous callers, in that case for hand protection you could wait for the turn to raise.

However in the example of this hand there are people acting behind you then make them make a decision raise it up, for value and to protect your hand.

Playing fast (even sets) in multiway pots at lower limits on party is very rarely going to kill your action, although table dependant etc etc.