Dropping 100 to 150 Big Blinds

[Dan Mezick]

I refer to the post To All The New 6-Max Players (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=891774&page=0&view=co llapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=3)

This post discusses how swings of 100 to 150 BB are common.

Really? That would be 1/2 your bank.

Playing swings of 100 to 150 BB in a fixed-limit game is nuts. There is no reason to play that fast and loose in these 6-max games.

The 6-max format AMPLIFIES your weaknesses. Recognize that and plan accordingly. Any game where you are experiencing 100 to 150 BB swings in a single session is TOO HIGH for your bankroll/skills combination.

Dropping 30 BB in a single session is cause for huge concern;

Dropping 100 BB in a single session is a total disaster;

Droppping 150 BB in a single session and deeming that occurrence 'normal' is anything but.

Having the occasional 60-80 BB swing is OK if it is rare.

The idea that one can and in fact should just expect 100 to 150 BB swings is way out of line.

[TazQ]

You're wrong.

My BB/100 tells me I'm very sexy and the swings are normal.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
The idea that one can and in fact should just expect 100 to 150 BB swings is way out of line.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're completely wrong. I don't know what else to say.

[imitation]

Why is it some of the biggest winners in 10/20 and 15/30 on this site parrot this same advice then? Do you think they are trying to set us all up to move up in limits so we lose to them??

I think you are wrong, but hey thats just me...

[Dan Mezick]

If these swings are normal, you need $1200 for 1-2 6 max.

You need $6000 for 5-10.

You need $12000 for 10-20.

You guys are telling me you play with these huge swings 6-handed and you are winners?

How? I can see heads-up play, or 3-handed being wild like this but come on, 6-handed? I'm doing fine 6 handed without the need to accept these wild 100-150BB swings are "normal".

How can you buy this notion?

Who is the authority selling this "normal" concept?

I like the fast pace and loose action of 6-handed but there is no way 100-150 BB sessions are typical. I've only had one session of over 70 BB in the last 40 hours of play.

Am I wrong? Please point me to some authoritative sources supporting these intense swings as "normal" for 6-handed.

Thanks in advance. I'm always game to learn, even though this one is hard to believe.

I mean, I'm doing fine without these swings, am I "not normal"? Easy now.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
Dropping 30 BB in a single session is cause for huge concern;

[/ QUOTE ]

i can't even begin to tell you how ridiculous this sounds.

[ QUOTE ]
Having the occasional 60-80 BB swing is OK if it is rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

I typically have one of these like every other day. when you're playing a billion hands a day, having these swings are inevitable.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are wrong, but hey thats just me...

[/ QUOTE ]

No. He thinks he's right, and that's *just* him.

[Schneids]

You're welcome to open up all 8 of my tables sometime and watch me play them, then assess the hand histories afterwards and see if I am spewing chips or not. I guarantee you I will almost always go through at least one 50BB swing if I play for a couple hours of 8 tabling.

I think the swings will be smaller in 1/2 than 5/10 and likewise smaller in 5/10 than 10/20, but you are so extremely wrong about what can constitute a "normal" swing in 6-max.

And w.r.t. a 10/20 bankroll, I would say yes, if you plan to make 10/20 6m your regular game, you should be prepared to have a $10,000 BR. I do believe you can get by with $600 for 1/2 6max, however.

[TJD]

I would really like you to be right. It would make life so much easier. However.......

trevor

[Dan Mezick]

OK so you guys have to play MANY marginal holdings in check-call mode or pushing speed with other (closely related but slightly better) hands.

True of False:
In a typical game of full 6-max, are these hands calling hands from UTG?

T or F? (just answer TTFT, FFFF, TFTF, etc:

KT
QT
JT
A9

Your replies appreciated in advance, thanks.

[meow_meow]

Maybe where you are going wrong is your focus on "the session".
Obviously, the amount of swing in a given session is a function of the length of the session. If you are only playing one table, then maybe 30 bb is a lot (although 4 tabling, it's not unusual to drop 25-30 bb at one of them in the course of 1-2 hours). When people talk about 150BB+ swings, they aren't usually talking about a single session.
You aren't going to get any serious responses without any data. What's your SD/100? What limit are you playing? What kind of swings do you experience, over how many hands logged?

The idea of the 300 BB bankroll is to reduce the ROR to insignificance, given a reasonable SD, and a positive true win rate. It may be a bit higher for the high variance 6max games, but not as much as you suggest.

[naphand]

None of these hands are calling hands from UTG.

In fact, there are probably NONE with the possible exception of Axs/any PP in very loose, very passive games and AA/KK as a LRR in tighter games.

I agree with Schneids that $600 is enough for Party $1/2. In fact I think you play there a month or two without ever seeing a swing much over $100. A $200 downswing would be a very bad run indeed.

At other sites/limits the aggression most certainly does make for larger swings, I can verify this from personal experience. And while I cannot yet comment on the Party $5/10 and $10/20 games, when enough trustworthy people tell me the world is round and orbits the sun, I begin to believe. Of course, the flat earth society still exists... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[imitation]

FFFF

I might raise some of these if they were suited and game conditions were right.

[stripsqueez]

my longest sessions would be around 1,500+ hands which would be at least say 50+ sessions i've played - i'm normally playing a mixture of 10/20 and 15/30 6 max

at a guess my worst session of this length would be around -$3,000 - losing $2,000 in such a session is something i would of done 4-5 times - if you asked how often i have been $2,000 down at some point in such a session it would be plenty more

worst downswing was almost $11,000 - my next 2 worst downswings were around $7,500 and $6,500 - all this over 200,000 hands winning at a healthy rate

i dont really care for the math of downswings anymore - its of no comfort when its happening and if you need it to tell you your playing crap then your a crap player

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
FFFF

I might raise some of these if they were suited and game conditions were right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this, and since it was well said do not need to add anything else.

[tempest7178]

lol. I played 40,000 hands last month. I had a week where I was -110 BB, +140 BB, -100 BB, +120 BB, +26 BB, +54 BB, +31 BB. Granted I was 4 tabling and my Avg playing session is around 2000 hands. Swings that big can happen, will happen, and do happen surprisingly often.

[rory]

This isn't live. You can easily drop 100-150 BB in a 'session' online because a 'session' can consist of thousands of hands. In a B&M game, dropping this many bets in a session would be a big problem but that is because in a 10 hour session you play maybe 300-400 hands. Online, 8 tabling, you would have played >8000. Also, these are short handed very aggressive games so the variance is much higher than a full ring game.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]

Really? That would be 1/2 your bank.


[/ QUOTE ]

The huge swings are why a lot of the people who make their living at these shorthanded games keep a 1000BB bankroll (or more). I think that may be overkill at the 5/10 level, since that game is rather passive compared to the 10/20 game.

I have experienced some pretty big swings in my brief journies into the 10/20 short game. Right now I have about 550BB for this game (well, that's what I will have after my next withdraw). I plan on dropping back to 5/10 if I drop to 300 or 400 BB.

Again, I think the swingyness goes up exponentially as you go up in level. The 10/20 game can get just insanely aggressive.

[fsuplayer]

Why dont you read a few posts and do a few SH/HU forum searches for some good posts before you tell us exactly how we should be playing and what type of results that playing should yield us.

your original post is so inaccurate its laughable.

fsuplayer

[turnipmonster]

what I want to know is what games/limits you are playing? compared to most everyone on here I'm very inexperienced at 6max, but the first thing that was very obvious to me after very few hands was the type of swings you can take in these games. this should be very apparent if you are referring to the party 6 max tables. if it's not apparent, pay more attention to the way your opponents play and their stats, and the game in general.

I'm guessing you haven't played a lot of limit poker if you are concerned about 30BB or even 100BB swings. FWIW a 500BB roll seems to be very standard for these games.

--turnipmonster

[Grisgra]

None of them are "calling" hands, but I open-raise with A9 (barely) on a non-tough table. I'd open-raise with QJs and JTs probably as well.

[MisterKing]

[ QUOTE ]
If these swings are normal, you need $1200 for 1-2 6 max.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play 1/2 5-max (crazier still than 6-max) with 350BBs and do fine. Granted, I don't 8-table like some of the other fine folks around here, but I've played plenty enough hands to know that this is appropriate. Unless you've personally logged a 100+ hours at 1/2 short (or higher), I'm not going to listen to any disagreement.

[ QUOTE ]
You need $6000 for 5-10.

You need $12000 for 10-20.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not qualified to comment here, but others have done so ably.

[ QUOTE ]
You guys are telling me you play with these huge swings 6-handed and you are winners?

How? I can see heads-up play, or 3-handed being wild like this but come on, 6-handed? I'm doing fine 6 handed without the need to accept these wild 100-150BB swings are "normal".

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're fixated on a problematic notion -- 100 to 150BB swings in a session. From what the folks above say, and everything I've read here, these swings are over 1000+ hands. For those playing +EV poker, its about the performance more than the results, at least in the short run (<10K hands). For me, I've yet to get nailed for more than 30BB's in a single 1/2 short session, but I guarantee the day will come. I've won 30+ BB's in a single session more than once, though. More importantly, and something you're just ignoring, is the fact that if a players' BB/100 is fantastic (as mine is /images/graemlins/tongue.gif), and the player isn't seriously overplaying his BR, then there's not a whole lot to worry about.

[ QUOTE ]
How can you buy this notion?

Who is the authority selling this "normal" concept?

[/ QUOTE ]

Experience. Its surprisingly convincing!

[Dan Mezick]

OK, I want to thank all you players for responding on this thread. I'm going to do a deep scan of the content here are when I've digested it I'll be back. Thanks again for your courtesy. Some of you guys are remarkable in going for the 8-tabling 6-max action; holy crap.

One last question: if you are multitabling 8 tables, is there any chance at all you have any clues about the current lineup at each table? Factor the point that players are rotating in and out on EIGHT tables.

Question: Does playing the players matter AT ALL in 6-max?? Or is it just a battering-ram, pound-pound-pound type of approach based on the macro stats?

[turnipmonster]

again I am very inexperienced, but I cut back to 2 tables to learn 5/10 6 max and I always have pokertracker gametime windows open, and pay a lot of attention to my opponents. to me it's much MORE player dependent than full ring.

--turnipmonster

[Emperor]

Okay did no one notice that the post title says Big Blinds... and then everyone else refers to 300BB....which I assume is BIG BETS which doubles the incorrectness of this posters comment....

[BlueBear]

Calling? Calling is <font color="red"> terrible </font> and is a losing play on the 10/20 short tables. Raising or folding in UTG straight is correct, and I'll do it with A9 and may open-raise with the others in depending on how tight the tables are or my image in the table.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay did no one notice that the post title says Big Blinds... and then everyone else refers to 300BB....which I assume is BIG BETS which doubles the incorrectness of this posters comment....

[/ QUOTE ]

i did not notice, now i do... If you cutt his point of references in half, it goes from a really flawed to an uber-redonkulous statement.

[samdash]

[ QUOTE ]
Dropping 30 BB in a single session is cause for huge concern;
In a typical game of full 6-max, are these hands calling hands from UTG? KT, QT, JT, A9



[/ QUOTE ]

[jomatty]

This has a lot to do with the limits you play. At 5-10 i rarely had gutwrenching, make you want to pull your hair out, swings. Since i started playing 10-20 and 15-30 6 max my stomach is in knots and im half bald(just kidding but i do find it very stressfull) My bb/100 is good (probably better than i can realistically expect to maintain) but the swings are severe