Watching them coldcall two on flop . . . [Archive]

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Grisgra

10-12-2004, 12:19 AM

Recently I've noticed this a LOT in the games I'm in, and it's really starting to bug me. It's causing me to slow down, obviously, and I can't decided whether that's a good thing or not.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, MP raises, Hero calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP bets, Hero raises, SB calls, MP calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP checks, Hero checks.

River: (6.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, MP checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 6.50 BB
Main Pot: 6.50 BB, between Hero, SB and MP. > Pot won by SB (6.50 BB).

Results in white below: 
MP has Kh Qh (one pair, threes).
Hero has As Qs (one pair, threes).
SB has Ac 2h (two pair, threes and twos).
Outcome: SB wins 6.50 BB. 
----------------
Hand #2 -- this one really pissed me off. What are the chances I'm ahead on the river + I get callers that wouldn't have bluffed if checked to them?

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, MP raises, Button 3-bets, SB calls, Hero calls, MP calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP calls, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (14 BB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 14 BB
Main Pot: 14 BB, between SB, Hero, MP and Button. > Pot won by Hero (14 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB has 8s 7s (one pair, sevens).
Hero has Jc Jh (one pair, jacks).
MP has 5c Ac (high card, ace).
Button has Qs Kc (high card, king).
Outcome: Hero wins 14 BB.

naphand

10-12-2004, 07:38 AM

It's understandable that you would slow down at times, but you must be constantly aware that you could be sacrificing BB by doing so. "Fear is the mind killer".

HAND 1: This is not a good flop for you, but its not terrible either, it is very possible it has missed everyone. You have overcards and a backdoor, 7.5 outs (I think). With a read on MP a raise looks OK if you think the players behind will fold. I think I prefer to open the betting here, with a bet before me and two to act a lot of the time I am calling and hoping the Turn gives me a reason to see the River. Is it conceivable a raise here against a possible bluff is for value? MP's hand looks like a big A or a PP, surely he CR this against you with a set or PP? With 2 opponents and a chance of folding out the player behind, then I like it more, against 3 it smacks of chip spewing and you really are praying for a big card on the Turn.

HAND 2: You have a clear value-bet on the River, there are a ton of worse hands that call you here. Some scratchy draw may have made it, or 76 (surely you hear about this on the Turn?) but very very little else. There is little to fear from this board holding a pocket overpair. You might even get raised by QT/KT etc.

Watching cold-call with trash like an ISD or any part of the flop should give you a warm feeling inside - these guys are complete morons.

Benjamin

10-12-2004, 03:11 PM

Hand #1 looks fine to me.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #2 -- this one really pissed me off. What are the chances I'm ahead on the river + I get callers that wouldn't have bluffed if checked to them?

[/ QUOTE ]
Excellent. You are surely giving up bets by checking in that situation. For one thing the SB has already checked, so he can't bluff, and the others will frequently check behind with a low pair that they will call with but not bet. You will also sometimes get calls from Ace high that won't bet.

B.

Nikla

10-12-2004, 04:27 PM

Hand 1: You need to 3-bet this PF every time.
Hand 2: What range of hands do you think you beat on turn but not on river? Clear bet on the end.

Best regards

Benjamin

10-12-2004, 04:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: You need to 3-bet this PF every time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Oops, I previously said that hand 1 looked fine, but I didn't notice the cold-call. I agree that 3-betting there is by far better.

b.

Grisgra

10-12-2004, 04:42 PM

I should have 3-bet preflop, but who here bets the turn?
My guess is that anyone who has a tiny piece is calling the turn after it pairs, and may even be raising me.

Hand #2, you don't give anyone credit for a low pocket pair that hit a set, or a high pocket pair that is about to raise me? I'm up against three others, all of whom saw the flop for 3 bets. And no one is going away. Hence my concern. Everyone sees this flop for one or two, I bet the river without thinking.

Benjamin

10-12-2004, 05:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I should have 3-bet preflop, but who here bets the turn?
My guess is that anyone who has a tiny piece is calling the turn after it pairs, and may even be raising me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Given the way you played it I think the check-down is fine. If you'd three-bet pre-flop, lost the SB, and were heads-up I'd probably fire again on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #2, you don't give anyone credit for a low pocket pair that hit a set, or a high pocket pair that is about to raise me? I'm up against three others, all of whom saw the flop for 3 bets. And no one is going away. Hence my concern.

[/ QUOTE ]

With an overpair, no significant post-flop resistance, and no read on my opponents, I'll bet there every time on these tables. If I had player specific reads then things can change.

B.

DyessMan89

10-12-2004, 05:32 PM

I would have done the same thing you did on everything except 3-bet Pf on hand #1 and bet the river on hand #2.

Grisgra

10-12-2004, 05:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Watching cold-call with trash like an ISD or any part of the flop should give you a warm feeling inside - these guys are complete morons.

[/ QUOTE ]

Big-time warm feeling /images/graemlins/smile.gif. It was an *excellent* session -- but it could have been better if I had known sooner exactly how stupid these people were!

I have to stop automatically giving people respect for coldcalling 3 pf or coldcalling a raise on the flop. Too often they're doing it with utter trash.

Nikla

10-12-2004, 11:40 PM

Hand 1: I would 3-bet pre like I suggested. If I had gotten it headsup I would fire again on turn AND bet river for value.

Hand 2: When you aren't popped on flop/turn there is no reason to be afraid of a set or an overpair. When the river blanks out it's a must bet.

TJD

10-13-2004, 04:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You have overcards and a backdoor, 7.5 outs (I think).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think 7.5 is too generous. The 6 overcard outs may not be clean, they may give you a second best hand when someone has Ax or Qx. Exactly how much to devalue is down to your judgement on the likely hands of your opps.

trevor

Guy McSucker

10-13-2004, 05:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I have to stop automatically giving people respect for coldcalling 3 pf or coldcalling a raise on the flop. Too often they're doing it with utter trash.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. They do this so often, they can't possibly have the kind of hand they ought to have for this action the vast majority of the time. Take these cold calls as an indicator of incompetence rather than strength until they show you otherwise.

Guy.

naphand

10-13-2004, 12:10 PM

Damn right 7.5 outs is too generous. Not sure what I was thinking here - ah yes I was thinking AJ. You could have 7.5 outs with two overcards plus backdoor, here a pocket overpair has far fewer ways to improve (precisely 2, though board pairing the bottom card could be another 3). Well spotted, so 2 clean outs and potnetially others which you cannot be so certain about.