Playing low pocket pairs ++hand

[mikey checks]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t645)
BB (t1545)
UTG (t980)
UTG+1 (t365)
MP1 (t1080)
MP2 (t1370)
CO (t1045)
Button (t970)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 calls t30, MP2 calls t30, CO calls t30, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t325</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls t295, MP2 folds, CO folds.

Flop: (t800) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets t320 (All-In)</font>, MP1 calls t320.



Comments on play of hand? Likeliness I'm ahead?

[Bigwig]

I think your play on this hand was awful.

44 in the SB is not a raising hand with that many limpers. And if you were going to raise with that size of a pot, with the stack size that you have, with a small pair, I would go all-in preflop.

I think that the best play is to limp and see a flop.

And, unless the flop is something like 5, 3, 2, I wouldn't bet without a set.

[gotham]

With a stack that's still &gt;20x BB, there is NO reason to raise a full field with pocket fours pre-flop, much less put in half your stack. if you're going to be that reckless, why not just push your entire stack in? you may have had more fold equity that way and that must have been the only thing you were looking for by raising with pocket fours, right?

what was the rush? why not wait to see if you hit your set in an unraised pot?

[ChrisV]

Play of hand: That size raise preflop was about the worst thing you could possibly do - pot committing without going allin. If you want to raise it's the whole lot, but you are better off just calling.

Probability you're ahead: pretty low. Maybe 20%. MP wins with any higher pair, KQ and AQ, which accounts for a lot of hands he'd play this way. The only things I can think of you beat vs. a non-maniac MP are 33 and AJ. Maybe KJ?

[LLXC]

Limp in. If you hit the set, great. If you don't, you can easily get away from it.

[mikey checks]

I'm usually TAG in single table tourneys but I wasn't seeing any cards about 15/20 hands deep and I got bored.

At my table noone was limping with monsters and a hand came where I had 4s in the SB and decided to take a risk to see if anyone else had pkts. I wanted to just go all in and take the accumulated blinds in the pot but also wanted someone to call so I did this little move.

[gotham]

why on earth would you want someone to call when, at best, you're a very slight favorite against two certain overcards and, at worst, you're a huge dog (even if you get called by pocket 5s)?

AND, by the way, you're out of position.

[mikey checks]

i was looking for a gamble to either steal the blinds or take a chance at doubling up.

i know im out of position, which is why i raised so much. it was an awkward raise, i was looking for a reraise (with Ax) or just 1 caller.

[gotham]

i'm still curious why you'd want to risk so much of your stack out of position with a small pair this early? it reeks of sheer impatience/quasi-tilt.

out of curiousity, where did you finish?

[mikey checks]

Here's the rest of the hand. I took first in this tourney about 25minutes later.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed)

WADB-Me (t645)
BB (t1545)
UTG (t980)
UTG+1 (t365)
MP1 <font color="purple">(The Unlucky WADB)</font> (t1080)
MP2 (t1370)
CO (t1045)
Button (t970)

Preflop: WADB-Me is SB with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 <font color="purple">(The Unlucky WADB)</font> calls t30, MP2 calls t30, CO calls t30, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">WADB-Me raises to t325</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 <font color="purple">(The Unlucky WADB)</font> calls t295, MP2 folds, CO folds.

Flop: (t800) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">WADB-Me bets t320 (All-In)</font>, The Unlucky WADB calls t320.

Turn: (t1440) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t1440) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1440
<font color="green">Main Pot: t1440 (t1440), between WADB-Me and The Unlucky WADB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by WADB-Me (t1440).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
WADB-Me has 4h 4c (three of a kind, fours).
The Unlucky WADB has Js Ad (high card, ace).
Outcome: WADB-Me wins t1440. </font>

[rjb03]

I bet you liked pushing that flop and getting called.

[mikey checks]

I did, only thing I could see calling me was a Queen or clubs. Pockets would have put me all in so I was hoping he didnt have a queen kicker for his Ace

[gotham]

congrats on the win but you got totally bailed out by the fact that your opponent is clueless - calling a huge PF raise with AJo? and then betting all-in when he missed the flop completely?

normally, i would put anyone who calls your pre-flop raise has you crushed with a med-to-big pair (TT or better) or, at worst has AK (even calling with AQ is a very poor play, IMO).

i think you dodged a bullet - but hitting your set on the turn was added insurance.

[LinusKS]

I don't hate this play.

You're second to lowest stack, and because it's Party, blinds are going to be rising quickly.

I've seen players make big raises on a limpy board before, and take everybody's money. You've already had a chance to see everybody's action, except the bb. There's around T200 in the pot, so it's not an inconsequential sum.

There is an argument that going all-in preflop is more likely to attract one or more callers than putting in half your stack.

1. All-in looks more like a bluff to some players - you're saying you're not looking for any action.
2. People like to see the flop.
3. Calling all-in preflop requires only one click. You're giving them twice as many chances to fold.

All in all, though, I think you're more likely to lose than win by doing this. Party players like to call, and 44 isn't a hand you want callers with. I just don't think you're going to be able to make enough people fold often enough to win this more than you lose it.

The real question is whether this improves your tourney EV compared to not doing it. You have something like 20 more hands before you'll be in panic mode, so you have to compare that to the chances this will work.

[LinusKS]

[ QUOTE ]
why on earth would you want someone to call when, at best, you're a very slight favorite against two certain overcards and, at worst, you're a huge dog (even if you get called by pocket 5s)?


AND, by the way, you're out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Position doesn't matter much, I assume, because he's looking to put all his chips in the pot on the flop regardless, and he wants to be the first to do it.

[mikey checks]

I agree. Long term repeating this will only by -EV. Sooner or later, the caller is not going to have AJ and miss, he's going to have 55+ and we're both going to miss.

I just thought in this scenario with a ~200 limped pot and everyone acting in front of me I would give it a shot to either take the blinds or make a move.

It worked and I resumed my play afterwards

[gotham]

but at the end of the day, it's a -EV move, as you noted yourself. you got lucky this time but we're not supposed to be analyzing these situations through a result-oriented lens.

i'm glad you got lucky but i still dislike the play. with SO many callers, you've got to figure SOMEONE is going to like their hand enough to call you and with 44, you DON'T want (or SHOULDN'T want) to be called.

[rachelwxm]

mikey, if you read my thread of 72 wild from sb, you will not be surprised that I think there is some merit in this move.
First of, you see everybody's move PF and except for limping aces, you can generally assume you are not far behind anyone. Mid pocket pair dominates you but who would call you raise PF?

Generally don't try this at very low limit like 10+1 and you need to play this successfully at tight table than loose one. And most importantly, once you show down 4s, tighten up more and next time move all in w Aces and you will get called. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[mikey checks]

I agree and I think the hand is good for a steal attempt and you have your coin-flip to back up a call.