UK headed wrong direction?

I just noticed that no-limit hold'em has broken out across the pond in the UK.


At the risk of agreeing 100% with Mason, I think this is a Very Bad Thing. Big-bet poker is great fun, but the wolves eat the sheep very quickly. In limit poker, the sheep can actually shear the wolf on occasion, and that brings him back. Europe's unwillingness to embrace limit poker is, IMHO, a major reason why poker isn't bigger over there. The sheep gather up a few quid, get into a pot limit game, and promptly lose their entire stack in the wrong one or two hands. Playing limit, that money would last much longer, they'd have more fun, and would be more inclined to return.


I have been hoping that online poker would make limit poker an accepted reality in Europe, and it may yet.


But I'm disappointed to hear that a London club is spreading its first no-limit game rather than spreading its first limit game.


Regards, Lee

Lee,


Haven't heard from you in awhile. First off, you still planning to be in the Durham area anytime soon next fall? I spoke to you over email a few months ago, and would still like you to drop by for our NL game at Duke.


Secondly, I approached the cardroom manager about starting a NL game similar to online poker (i.e. with a maximum buyin), and he agreed, saying he had been thinking about that himself for quite some time. The game seems fairly healthy, as it's the same people in the casino every night, and some of the PL players have just made the switch to NL, and others are staying with PL. They tried limit tournaments here, and they just didn't take off, because _limit poker is boring!_


The players here want to play big-bet poker, and they have been doing that all their lives. Now, _some of them_ are playing NL in addition to PL, and in some senses, the game is smaller due to the £250 maximum, £50 minimum buy-in. Europe has limit poker, but the UK rarely does. Still, poker seems quite healthy out here. The perennial losers just keep on coming back anyhow.


Max.

To Lee:


Interestingly it was an American (Max) who initially pitched the idea of no-limit hold’em. He has already owned up to that.


UK casinos are mainly located in high-rent locations and the games need to be of a certain size in order to get back the money. Limit poker has been tried three or four times in the six years that I have played. It usually lasts about 2 weeks before people lose interest. People here just find it boring. The other point is that your assumption that the bad players get fleeced to fast assumes that they have limited funds, but London has some very wealthy people in it, especially from the middle-east. It is they who make the games worthwhile. Would a no-limit game in Beverly Hills run dry quickly? Of course not!


I like limit when I am on holiday, but I can’t see how anyone can make a consistent income out of it, unless the rake is very low.


David Young

They've only played NL a couple of times, in one card room, for small stakes. So it's not a trend, but I should think it will be popular because pretty much everyone who's ever read any poker books has read SuperSystem and fancies the idea of playing NL for cash (there are loads of NL tournaments).


What is more interesting is the maximum buy-in. I believe that a lot of potential new players in the UK are put off from playing pot limit because realistically the minimum you can play cash games with is in the low hundreds, and that's too much for most beginners, who also feel intimidated by the big stacks other players have. A maximum of 250 is still too much to get nervous newcomers involved, but the idea is a good one.


Oh no!! Not again!

Max!


I'm moving to Raleigh in three weeks and was planning to pick up the drums to replace poker. Don't let my family suffer! Can I get in on the Duke game?


Also, do you know of any other games in the area, especially bigger games?


Thanks in advance.


Matt

mflynn3@yahoo.com

Go Limeys. I'm all for ya.


The US has whimped out on NL & PL hold'em in my opinion. Too much emphasis on the limit games. I wish I had more access (live access) to these games. It is rare to even find a NL or PL game in Las Vegas and I think that is despicable. Some Indian casinos have a few games but I think california card rooms are the only ones that really have regular games. What a shame Las Vegas has whimped out on some of the best and most exciting Poker games. Even Reno has a regular NL game - NOT Vegas - What a bunch of Pussies. And Vegas has lots of money and tons of money flys into the town 24 hours a day. So there!!!


-Zeno, From Greenland.

David,


I am surprise you can't see that someone can make a consistent income out of limit poker. It seems obvious to me. No limit and pot limit mean that running into one outrageous hand can cost you a huge stack. In limit, your edge is there (if you have one, I don't!!) hand after hand and can't be too significantly hurt by one big pot. Don't get me wrong, I find that I prefer no-limit overall, but a tiny and scared bankroll means that if limit poker was played over here in the UK, that would be my game every time.


I'm an online poker player lost to the UK casino games (apart from the very very occasional tourney) entirely because there are not any limit games.

Where is the game played with a low enough rake? I played 6/12 in Hollywood Park on my one night in LA five years ago. We had to pay $3 on the button.


Doesn't that erase anyone's edge?


I suppose that a good limit player does make consistent income if he finds a game where the rake is small relative to the stakes, but what level is that at? $10/$20? $15/30?


David

I live in Britain and personally it gets me down that it is impossible to play low limit poker anywhere but online. From what I can tell there is almost a snobbish attitude to limit hold'em here (either that or an unwillingness to adjust to it). Maybe when they turn Blackpool into the British version of Las Vegas (all right so it won't be quite as grand ;-) ) and dispense with our antiquarian gaming laws (having to join a casino 24 hours before going, no alcohol at the tables) more low rollers out for a good time will start going to casinos and I'll be able to play the game I love. But the way things are going now the stakes seem to be rising not getting more affordable. What hope for us British low-limit lovers? Very little at the moment.

I interrupt this sad lament to introduce some facts:


1997: The Victoria casino, with great fanfare, announces that it is promoting Limit poker. The games are given the special promotional bonus that if you play for the first two hours, the third hour's table charge is waived. The games take place on one day a week and disappear in week three. Where were all the people who said that they wanted limit poker?


2000: The Russell Square casino offers limit poker. The games are spread on Friday night. They disappear after three months.


2001: The Victoria (again) tries to introduce limit poker. The game is run on Sunday afternoon and attracts all the young Paradise afficionados. It vanishes after four or five weeks.


In summary: Again and again, the London casinos HAVE tried to introduce limit poker and the word has gone out. The simple fact of the matter is that when push comes to shove, all the people who sit in front of their computers writing about how they wish they could play limit poker in UK casinos don't bother to turn up when it's offered to them. Casinos are businesses and they have to cater to paying customers ~ not fantasy customers.


I played in every one of those games at least once.


David Y

Sure Matt. The game has kinda died since one of the other main players and I are out of the country this semester, but you can join us when we start back up next August. We should have a nice, healthy game. Just get in contact with me in August or so and we'll give you the specifics. (email is max.cohen@duke.edu) By the way, I can't really recommend against the drums -- I played them for 8 years and loved it.


Max.

Rake in my casino (that i have to pay $150 to get to), is 5% capped at $10, for my $10/20 limit game. Thank god tipping is illegal. Despite the high rake and travel costs, i have only once failed to make a substantial profit from one of these trips.


I find it hard to believe that good players will average only 1 to 1.5 big bets per hour in a limit game. I feel that this is a figure drummed up by pros to make slightly better than break even players think they are better than they really are. I have always been ahead of that mark, and since taking up the game semi prfoessional am well in excess of 4 bets per hour.


$3 rake should not only be beatable, but it should be so negligible that it barely affects your game. I don't like the button collection however.

I find it hard to believe that good players will average only 1 to 1.5 big bets per hour in a limit game


I also found it hard to believe until it sank in that the average pro is facing much stiffer competition than me. I don't have the option of playing in casinos so I've had to become very adept at finding, starting, and ensuring the survival of home games over the last couple of decades. I would guess a lot of pros are very limited in just how choosy they can be with regards to game selection.