Etiquette - Educating the Fish

[Cosimo]

What does the forum think about educating the other players at the table? Stuff like talking about pot odds and outs, suggesting books, recommending sites, discussing strategy, etc.

There were a couple players doing this at one of my tables today, and it really pissed me off (I wound up turning off chat). It was a microlimit table, so it's not like I'm paying rent money with my winnings, but it's still a case of hurting your chances for making money in the future. I want the mass of players out there to be ignorant, and to stay that way. I make money because my opponents make mistakes.

At chess, go, Starcraft, or whatever, I want to help my fellow players. It's fun to put strategy guides together. But for poker...?

[krazyace5]

Most of these so called table coach pros at these limits give bad advice anyway.

[surfdoc]

This has been discussed ad naseum on these boards,in card player mag and in multple other sources. The answer is so obvious it is suprising we need another thread. Don't ever educate the fish. Why would you ever give up even the slightest edge? Even if the advice given by some table coaches is bad, just by bringing up pot odds, etc. you may raise the level awareness at the table and peolple may seek out the correct info. Not good.

As far as getting them to stop, that is another matter which I will leave to others to comment on.

[Freudian]

Then I suppose you are against the existance of these forums (since this forum is a great educator of fish) also and against those that give advice that help other posters here improve their game?

Personally I don't talk about it at the table but have no problems with others giving advice at the table. I do however react when the "education" comes in the form of berating the poor players. I want the poor players to enjoy being at my table so I have no problems defending them at the table.

[Cosimo]

[ QUOTE ]
The answer is so obvious it is suprising we need another thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

I started a thread cuz the table coaches were talking about pot odds, SSH, and sending people here to the forums. I want whomever that coach was to see the opinions here.

If there was a sticky about this subject, a sticky FAQ, or a sticky favorites thread, then issues like this wouldn't spawn new threads every week. I felt a bit guilty about bringing this up again, but I think it's worth it. It gets brought up every week because we get new readers who haven't had the old discussions.

So consider this my vote for a sticky in every forum.

-

Normally I just say "please don't tap on the glass", and sometimes ask "are you hoping to teach your opponents to take your money?". Usually that works. The reason why microlimits do matter is that players move up. Smart micro fish turn into mid- and high-stakes sharks.

[krazyace5]

these forums and table coaching could not be more different.

[Wahoo91]

You seem way to concerned about this.

[Freudian]

Because you chosen this place to educate yourself and not the tables? I see no material difference between answering a poker question at the table and answering it here.

[Eratosthenes]

The few fish that want to study and improve are going to find the books, this forum, etc. The vast majority want to gamble and are not interested in the books (etc.) and probably even scoff at the notion that you could improve your poker results by reading a book or an internet forum. Most people don't want to know that you can get better at poker (+blackjack + golf + engineering + whatever) by study and practice--they prefer to think of good players as lucky, talented, or gifted.

I've witnessed this behavior for years at the blackjack tables--the losers just don't care what proper strategy is.

If someone asks me how to improve--I'll help; if not, I'll leave them alone.

So the answer is that it doesn't matter; fish will be fish and little sharks will grow up to be big sharks.

[jedi]

There should be another choice. Give as much misinformation as possible.

"Always play any ace and any 2 suited cards, even for a number of raises."

"Gotta love 23 cuz it can make a wheel"

[Lori]

It depends what you mean.

If there's a fish who loses with his 22 on a QQJJx board and wants to know what is going on, I'll tell him.

Why?

Because rather than thinking he's been stolen from, he'll go away thinking that this poker lot ain't a bad bunch, and let's face it, it hasn't stopped him going bust, but it may buy him long enough to survive a few days and tempt him to try again.

Lori

[pdubz]

Posting in a forum designed to help fellow poker players about not want to help fellow poker players is so ironic I want to cry.

[AncientPC]

I don't think people should be table coaching, but I'm more than happy to discuss poker away from the table.

[EliteNinja]

I agree with jedi, misinformation would be good.

You could introduce them to "Online Poker, Cracked!" on ebay, lol.

[Stork]

If you don't believe that the fish should be able to be educated, you shouldn't have bought any poker books in the first place. It is incredibly selfish to be annoyed at people who are trying to help their game.

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't believe that the fish should be able to be educated, you shouldn't have bought any poker books in the first place. It is incredibly selfish to be annoyed at people who are trying to help their game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Selfish?

1) Table coaches often give blatantly wrong advice, not to mention often for the sake of stroking their own ego.

2) They have access to the same resources as the rest of us, the internet. Just becaues they're too lazy to study / research poker themselves doesn't mean that we should be spoon feeding them.

3) If someone asks me, I'll point them to a few books and these forums. I'd happily comment about how a hand was played, but the rest is up to them.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]

3) If someone asks me, I'll point them to a few books and these forums. I'd happily comment about how a hand was played, but the rest is up to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I will do. If someone is genuinely asking for advice, I will give it. My advice is usually "Read a good basic book like [whatever book I think is appropriate]". I think the only other advice I have given is that the person was playing too many starting hands.

BUT, I think I have genuinely been asked for advice less than three times in all my playing. (More if you count people watching tournaments asking what it takes to get deep in a tourney, but my response to that is along the lines of "a lot of luck, even if you are the best tournament player in the world.") I have found that the people I encounter at the table do not want any advice. I guess they are embarassed or think it shows too much weakness or just don't want to put in the effort. Also, people rarely appreciate (to put it mildly) unsolicited poker advice no matter how good it is.

[Rooster71]

You left out some other possible options. Among these are 1) agreeing with the table coach's bad advice and telling them they really know their stuff, and 2) giving them more bad advice.

My opinion is that if players want to learn the game, they can buy books and study them, practice and study some more, just like I did.

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
You left out some other possible options. Among these are 1) agreeing with the table coach's bad advice and telling them they really know their stuff, and 2) giving them more bad advice.

My opinion is that if players want to learn the game, they can buy books and study them, practice and study some more, just like I did.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I don't like giving advice at the table, I feel like giving bad advice (especially intentionally) is even worse.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
(since this forum is a great educator of fish)

[/ QUOTE ]
How do you figure that?

[BigBaitsim (milo)]

I rarely educate, but it probably makes little difference, as evidenced by last Wed night's game...

Playing live at the Moose Lodge, seven to the flop for one SB. I flopped an OESD with QJo on a TK2r board. I bet, was raised by MP, and called by LP and another player. The turn was a blank, and I check-called MP's bet, as did LP (these guys will never fold with any pair, so I had to hit to win). The river was an A. I checked, MP bet, LP raised, I three bet, MP called, LP capped, MP called. When both LP and I showed JQo, MP (who had KTo) started berating us for "chasing." I rarely educate, but I started discussing the pot odds on each street with the one other player (not LP, who was a total fish) who understood the concept. The rest of the table then launched into a long discussion of what total BS "the books" are and how "you can't never win playing by the book, you gotta play the cards."

I make a lot of money from the Moose.

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
The rest of the table then launched into a long discussion of what total BS "the books" are and how "you can't never win playing by the book, you gotta play the cards."


[/ QUOTE ]
Awesome!

[Fitz]

I have mixed feelings about this sort of thing. I don't see anything wrong with saying something to a player away from the table. That is how I found out about 2+2 several years ago. A few kind words from a player in a B&M card room. I have rarely made an exception and said something to a player online. One of the friends I referred to this forum via the old 2/4 games at Paradise has become an accomplished player and contributor to this forum, so I guess saying a few words to a fellow player isn't such a bad deal.

Good luck all,

Fitz

[Stork]

1) Table coaches often give blatantly wrong advice, not to mention often for the sake of stroking their own ego.

If the table coaches are giving blatantly wrong advice, then obviously they shouldn't be doing that. I was assuming people who were geniuinely trying to help, even if it is just to boost their ego.
2) They have access to the same resources as the rest of us, the internet. Just becaues they're too lazy to study / research poker themselves doesn't mean that we should be spoon feeding them.

You shouldn't feel obliged to help them, but if someone else wants to help the fishies you have no right to berate that person or be upset with them for helping others.

[AncientPC]

I don't feel obliged unless they're honestly asking for help, but I don't stop the table coaches either. I just sit tight, shut up, and play my game.

[Wahoo91]

If table talk ever occurs at my table I simply act like I am clueless and a total nOOb. For some reason this is not hard for me to do.

[MicroBob]

If someone asks "did you have the ace?" or something like that I will respond "I was fast-playing with 72o."

If someone observes a nice C/R that I pulled off or something like that and says 'NH' I will respond that I got really lucky.

If someone starts berating another player and tells him he should just go play bingo I say "I like Bingo!!" "B-I-N-G-O and Bingo was Name-o"

If someone says I suck I say 'TY'. If they get angry about this and the fact that I drew out on them and they say "get a life douche-bag" I will say "Thank you again"


The point is that you don't have to me terribly serious at the table....particularly of the internet variety. When it comes to discussion of pot-odds and SSHE, etc I keep that entirely reserved for these forums.
At the table, IF i'm chatting (rarely) I will be a goof-ball and will usually amuse the others at the table...except for the guy who is steaming mad at me who sometimes gets more annoyed, but also sometimes lightens up considerably after my levity.


At a live table, I've occasionally offered only semi-accurate opinions on a hand and I certainly don't go that in depth about it. I keep my response simple and act like "well, I thought he might be bluffing so it was worth a shot."
One time, a player next to me asked me made sure to show me what was being mucked and asked if I would have stayed in on that draw (I think it was KJs with a flush-draw on the turn but the betting was capped).
I explained very quietly the truth about the hand....that's it's expensive to call a capped bet there if you miss and you could still be behind to an ace-flush but it was definitely worth it because the pot was huge.
Why was I so truthful to this player about how I would have played the hand?
Perhaps it was because she was REALLY REALLY cute.

Otherwise, just act like a drunk or whatever and have fun.....and leave your discussion of 'real' poker for when you're away from the table (the forums...or with friends who actually know their stuff, etc etc).


If I had been there when they were chatting about 2+2 and SSHE I might have (if I was feeling caffeintated/frisky enough) said stupid, silly crap like
"SSHE stands for Super Small Happy Elephants" or something like that.

[NLSoldier]

My usual response to a table coach is:

"Hey thanks for the advice professor how about you give me a private lesson in a HU match"

That usually shuts them up or makes me some extra dough /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Stork]

[ QUOTE ]

Why was I so truthful to this player about how I would have played the hand?
Perhaps it was because she was REALLY REALLY cute.


[/ QUOTE ]

Kitten cute or pornstar cute?

[Blarg]

One poster wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
You shouldn't feel obliged to help them, but if someone else wants to help the fishies you have no right to berate that person or be upset with them for helping others.


[/ QUOTE ]

But I find coaches are rarely trying to help anyone but their own egos. Even if they are good coaches(which is extremely rare), the fact that they are being coached right in front of everybody embarasses most people and often chases them off the table.

So if you combine jerky and nice coaches, you get a lot of fishes both chased away and made angry or humiliated enough if they stay that they won't want to come back any time soon.

In all, the damage is huge in comparison to whatever "help" even the nicest coaches give. Really, the only help they give is virtually always to themselves.

I've been very disappointed to see these geniuses consistently chasing fish off the table and leaving us with everyone else. I don't want to play everyone else -- I want to play fishes, and sometimes spend a good while looking for them.

[Freudian]

You are correct that in the vast majority of cases the coaching is done to berate the fish-who-won-the-pot-with-a-silly play. And then of course it is in your own interest to shut up the coach.

But if a fish asks a poker question (should I raise with KK preflop?) and someone answers them honestly, there is no real damage done. The improvement done to the fish's game is minimal and the mood at the table is if anything better, and not worse. Yet the the most rabid "i'm a good player, let's not educate the figh" players would react to the honest answer in this case.

I don't particularly appreciate those that out of the blue decide to hold a poker lecture at the table, but answering questions from fish is ok with me.

[jdl22]

I'm with Lori. I have rarely educated bad players. The only exceptions I can think of are when they think that they should have won the hand and didn't and then asked a rules question. Common examples are the board double pairing and them having a lower pair and their kicker being better but not playing.

So I voted for the third option, but I think you are blowing it out of proportion. People get too freaked out by 2+2 being known. TOP is a pretty well known book and you still see plenty of people playing poorly. In some cases they own some good poker books and still suck.

I highly doubt 2+2 would allow a sticky telling posters not to tell others about this site. Why would they do that?

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]

I highly doubt 2+2 would allow a sticky telling posters not to tell others about this site. Why would they do that?

[/ QUOTE ]

They have decided they have sold enough books already? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Lawrence Ng]

I believe that poker should be a friendly game and yes I have educated people in live B&M games before, but not to the extent of what you think.

I've played in 10-20, 20-40 games with complete noobs. I mean real noobs. They have absolutely no clue how to play except they do know the ranking of hands. They are very friendly folks who come to play the game and want to learn about it. So if they are sitting next to me, I will explain everything from the betting rounds, to check, call, raise, or fold, to putting a chip on their hand so the dealer doesn't swipe it away, to putting turning over their cards if they are unsure whether or not they have a winning/losing hand and let the dealer decide.

I do not teach them about pot odds, whether or not they should call or raise, nor do I ever ask to see their hands. Though one time I did have this nice lady beside show me her hand while I was also in the hand asking me if she should fold. She had Q-3 offsuit and on the turn was drawing dead. I did not know what to say, but the pit declared her hand dead and it was good thing too since she was drawing dead.

The thing is new players are probably nervous enough already coming into a game they have no clue about and the last thing they need is for people to intimidate on a social level. They know they will most likely lose, but to make the game unfriendly for them just drives them away faster.

What I really hope these new players do is get lucky on a pot by sucking out. Then they think either 1. they get lucky and like the game. 2. play good and continue to play. If they never win a hand after dropping 30 - 50 BB worth of buy-in, they most likely most play again. And for sure if the table comadarie is very unsocialable it will give them a very nasty first impression of the game.

[RydenStoompala]

[ QUOTE ]
What does the forum think about educating the other players at the table?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is the dumbest, most pathetic and dorky thing you can possibly do. It is a habit shared by mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging baboon people who mine used gum for a living and are still searching for a biological link to humans.

Ooops...Was that out loud?

[Adde]

The big problem is not the Coach, nor the Fish under attack. The big problem is the other players who almost always tightens up.

The other day I was at a coach table, with good Pokertracker data for 5 of the (other) players, all ranging from 35%-50% flops seen. After leaving the table I examined the hand histories for this session only (some 100 hands), and all of these players had gone down to 15-25% after the coach started his lesson.

Adde

[Emperor]

This is my pet peave! I dunno why it is, if I am disciplined I just turn chat off, but usually it goes like this...

Some Table Coach berates a Fish:

I then..

1. "You gotta be in to win!"
2. "Family Pots are fun!"
3. "Oh this is the Poka SKool Table?"
4. "Table coaching is bad etiquette"
5. "How much for pvt lessons? Care to go headsup?"
6. "STFU! You're scaring the fish!"

7. I just learned this and it is my personal favorite at putting the whole table on tilt...

"I love Haliburton, how bout you?"

then follow up with

"I voted for the 87 Billion before I voted against it"

Now that you have all the libs yelling at you, time to switch...

"Dubya is gonna reinstate the draft!"

At this point the table will go full tilt and VPIP will go through the roof...


My goal is to take all the attention off the table coach if he just won't stfu.

Besides Tilting is fun...

[ncboiler]

[ QUOTE ]
Then I suppose you are against the existance of these forums (since this forum is a great educator of fish) also and against those that give advice that help other posters here improve their game?

Personally I don't talk about it at the table but have no problems with others giving advice at the table. I do however react when the "education" comes in the form of berating the poor players. I want the poor players to enjoy being at my table so I have no problems defending them at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I second that emotion. Actually when these fish loose their first deposit they are done...finished with pooker. If they can make a little bit of money then maybe they will be around long enough for me to have a slice of the their pie.

[ZeeJustin]

[ QUOTE ]
Posting in a forum designed to help fellow poker players about not want to help fellow poker players is so ironic I want to cry

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if you have any sense of community.

[LoveNh8]

You EDUCATE the fish?????????
You EDUcate them?

OH MY GOD you are a moron.
My jaw is in my LAP.

That's like asking for a pay cut.
JEEBUS you are a moron.

I literally cannot close my mouth due to jaw slackness.
If you sat around for a week and tried to think up REALLY stupid sh** to do at poker,
this would top the list.

STOP.
NOW.