Double standard here

It seems you hate a few of my large overbets on the flop when often I hold the best hand as you think I'll just pick up $20 or so. Yet, in the hand where you called the extreme overbet of Pete's aces of $300 with Q,9c you seem convinced you were right to call.


Why is my bet so bad if I can count on some players to make calls with inferior cards such as you did?


Perhaps I was looking for a similar call from someone holding bad cards.


I know that there is a difference here as you were going to try to get all of Pete's $8000 with 1 great play but the difference is not as big as you seem to hint at. I had $750 at the time and there were several players there offering me the same ratio.


I just have a different philosophy and bankroll situation than you. I started thr game with $340, only dropped below that once with a call of $20 (on your raise) with 99. From there I built it to over $2,000 and cashed out in 2 hours, yes with a bit of luck on 1 hand.


You admit to bleeding off $1,000 or more of your $12,000 before getting the big hit of $2600, yes on quite a bit of luck. We both made almost the same money with different styles of play.

Neither is necessarily the only way to play. Results are what matter. Both our styles have meant wins for both of us, there and in the NL tourney.


You keep on playing hard! I will too!

Think risk vs. reward, Glen. Your play had big risk/small reward. Greg's play had small risk/big reward because of the great implied odds factor along with the good read factor. The other guy was in a march in broad daylight along a predictable path while Greg was in the shadows on an ambush mode that was very easy to abort if the right flop didn't show up.

No one has more respect for Greg's abilities than I. I have seen and played him in action more than a few times. But with $12,000 in front of him, you can say small risk high reward. I think blowing off $1000 or more chips before getting the big hit is a big risk. Pete, the guy who dumped $2600 to Greg was leaving just before I did but at the last moment decided to play one more round. Now what if he had walked. There was no one there that was going to be able to supplement Greg to get even on 1 hand.


I did have high risk with 2 of my bets, but I held AA and KK on those hands. Isn't that what we all want to be holding when the money goes in.


Though we both made close to $2000 my total risk in the game was $300 compared to Greg's huge exposure.


I made 6x my investment, Greg made 1/6 profit on his investment.


Again, different styles, different methods. Results similar. You put $12,000 if front of me, you'll see a vastly different game on my part too. But I still would play a bit tighter. I don't like bleeding chips at any time. You may not get them back.


Keep playing hard!

I fail to see how the ratio is the same. I put up $300 with a chance of winning $8000, a ratio of about 27:1.


You put up $150 with a chance of winning $20 now and up to $750 more. That's a ratio of only 5:1. The difference is a factor of more than 5, which is huge.


At least I think so.


Pete made the same mistake you made (IMO), and unlike you he didn't get away with it. There was only something like $50 in the pot when Pete bet $300, a huge overbet. A pot-sized raise by him would've been more like $75 to go. I call the &75, and there's about $175 in the pot. Do you think he goes on to lose $2600 total? I don't. I think he gets away from his AA before he puts in that much money.


Admittedly, the situations are quite different. He had AA, and if he could've bet it all and gotten called, he wants to do so. You didn't have AA, so you don't want to get called by just anybody, but only folks who you're beating. In both of your big overbet hands, there was room for you to be beat. I think you got lucky to get called by the worse hand the first time, and lucky to suck out on the better hand the second time.


Of course, in the first hand (your KK vs. the kid's QQ), you knew your player. You know him much better than I. It is quite possible you overbet for a correct reason, because you knew how he would respond. If you knew this, and you knew that he would've made the same call with JJ, TT, etc., then fine, you made the correct play. Not knowing the kid so well, I wouldn't expect him to call with those other hands.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Glen,


Greg is right that his play is much better than yours.


However.. he was in a better spot than you to begin with. You have to deal with your situation. In your situation (both the A6 and KK overbets) you were facing a situation where you could..


a) get played off your hand


b) get tricked out of your whole stack after getting out-drawn.


c) miss the opportunity to get any more of your opponents money when you do have the best hand.


d) be behind right now


Logic dictates that you want all the money you risk to go into the pot when you have the best of it. When you have what you think to be the best hand at the moment (in the A6 hand you had no reason to believe you didnt when the action first got to you) checking or limping is contrary to the dictated logic.


However overbetting by too much has the same effect as checking or limping in that you are giving up expectation. The larger your overbet the more inclined your opponents will be to only give you action when you are drawing nearly dead. Thus you again are only risking the money when you are no longer getting the best of it.


One must balance the utility of eliminating A, B, C, and/or D with the 'best play' as defined if you both had infinite stacks.


We would all like to make the big bets with the winners and the small bets with the losers. Accomplishing that goal has a lot to do with your overall strategy (ie.. table image). I know your table image and have made mistakes against you by neglecting it and playing on hope. (remember the quad aces? I still feel pain.) Don't be suprised if in the future when I call your big bets that I have you beat.


Of course.. what do I know.. the last time I played live pot limit I got totally crushed by the local whale.

Just a few more thoughts then I want to let this go. Pete made the $300 bet because HE KNEW you would call with an inferior hand and he was right. What happened after that were mistakes made on his part. But he wanted you to pay him off for his aces. I'm sure he figured on picking up $300 and then watching you dump the hand when the flop missed you and he bet $300 more. I'm sorry if this comes off wrong but you were paying off everyone up to that point and he knew this.


He should have never let you get so much more but that's his mistake then. I don't necessarily agree that his overbet preflop was bad...it was just what he wanted and got what he expected.


I agree that the play of my KK for $400 was too big a bet for 95% of similar situations and I would not make that move had someone else made it $75. But I do know that kid well. He's very new to this and I have extracted calls from him like that on several occasions in the tourney. I am fully aware of the fact that he, or someone else might have had aces but felt confident enough to take the risk. I knew full well that I was risking my entire stack on the play. But I was pretty sure I was going to get all of his and I did.


My play on the A6 is definately arguable. But I don't think the flop bet of $150 was the real problem. I get paid off by any big ace. I get out all non-nut flush draws. That's what I wanted at that point. My errors after the smooth call by Pete are acknowledged as real errors. I did get very lucky. I should have dumped the hand when he led out $240 on the turn. But I don't think that my bet of $150 was the real problem or a big mistake. There were many people in that game that would have called with AJ, AQ, AK and yet not aggressive enough to try to bluff me off the hand.

I'll let them have their 3 outs. Had anyone called and checked to me I would either not have bet the turn or made a small similar bet. Yes, that sets up an opportunity for them to bet the river into me and gives them a free card but I think if played out 100,000 times, I win more in that scenario than I lose.


I make mistakes, everyone does. And I continue to learn and improve daily. But I play situational poker. Every hand is different and I play them differently against different opponents in different situations. I have 3+ years of NL under my belt both live and in tourneys and have been far more than just average-successful. I don't believe it's because I've been lucky all this time. I must be doing a few things right. And just maybe these few situations that you seem to want to tell me are always incorrect, aren't always! I hate the inference that there is only 1 way to play this game. The game is so different every hand. I think I adapt well to those changes.


BTW, you have yet to remark on my play against your KK with my AA. Yes, it's a cold deck and pretty straight forward. But I double through on you with ease and I know you never had me on aces, even when you rolled over your KK. I was in bad position and didn't overbet that. I played the situation and accomplished what I set out to do. Double up through you.


I apologize if I'm getting snotty or defensive but I keep hearing these comments about my bad play yet I keep putting up great stats. Why is that? And don't try to tell me I'm runnng good...for 27 of 28 years.


Keep playing hard!

If, as you say my bet of $150 on the flop with top and bottom pair is an overbet then what happens in this scenario...


UTG limps UTG with AK or AQs and checks that flop to me with the full intention of check raising. I make a more reasonable bet (in your opinion) of say $50 or less and now he re-raises to $200 or $300. How can I call even though I have the best hand? It clearly puts me in a position to have to make a critical decision. Sure I can lay it down and it cost me $55 or less but I throw away the best hand here. I think the $150 bet is going to slow down any AK or AQ into just calling or mucking which is far better for me than the alternative. I grant you that once in a while a deep stack with huge balls will still try the same move and I'll have to muck and lose more. But the chances were strong that flopping top and bottom is the best hand here in a 4 way limp hand.


Comments?

Sorry if I've come across as too negative. Just because I think you made a couple of bad decisions that session doesn't mean I don't think you made other decisions that were very good. You made other good decisions, many more good than bad.


I simply HATE the idea of significantly overbetting the pot, and I think it is VERY rarely the correct play. Since it is so rarely correct, I choose not to do it at all, since doing it when it's wrong is so expensive, and if I only did it when it's right, you and other guys who know me would always know what it meant.


If the pot were already heads-up with some guy I hadn't played with much, and probably wouldn't play with much in the future, then I might overbet the pot if I thought it was the best play. But, these are pretty rare circumstances.


Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Actually, I think your overbet was close to perfect.


If I remember correctly, your bet was $475 total when your opponent had $650. This is a little too much but it's the right idea. You WANT to get potstuck preflop.


I would have made it $250 to $300 to go, and if no ace comes, I push in on the flop. If he has any pair, he'll probably call, and if he outflopped you, you got WAY the best of it. Also, the bet of $250-$300 will induce him to simply push it all in with all kinds of hands that you beat. Lots of pairs in the mid range, and of course AK.


This kind of bet is great even against excellent players because an excellent player will know that you know his button raise could be a little loose. Your bet of $250-$300 will often look like you just don't believe he has anything on the button and are attempting to "rebuy" the pot. So he'll push in quite loosely here if he's an expert. You've set him up with the overbet.


Against a weak player, he probably won't let go of anything decent so your half-stack bet is for value. Either way, I like your bet more or less, although I think it's a little too high considering his stack threshold. He would have to have around $900-$1000 for the $475 bet to be correct (which I would still think is the right move).


natedogg