river bluff, haunting hand

10-10 pl @ commerce, this is not such a big hand but i still wonder if i made the right move. 3 tables going at this level. its tourney time so there are tons of players i dont recognize, im in between two of them. im in the cutoff, player to my right is first in and limps, i make it 50 to go with AcKh, button cold calls, limper calls. I put them both on medium pocket pairs or smallish suited connectors. flop is 3h 7c 8c, not my favorite but im not gonna check against 2 unknown players so i rep. big pair and bet $150. Button calls instantly, limper thinks and calls. i put button on straight or flush draw, i put limper on a hand like 89 or 99, small flush or straight draw. turn is a 9d, im done with the hand now, limper checks (looks like hes done with the hand too) i check and button gladly checks! I now have the button firmly planted on a flush draw, limper has a pair. river is a Th putting a 4 straight on board. limper checks, i feel the hand is mine if i bet, the button and limper have both clearly missed. I bet $450, button calls, limper folds. Can anyone guess what the button's hand was (printed below) was it a bad move or just bad luck? i know ive made plays like this in the past and took the pot down.


(buttons hand: kcjc, yuck!)

In my opinion, your big bet should have been on the turn not the river. You wanted to represent a big pair and did it only half way. That usually will not work. I dislike the flop also but your reads are good; So you may have got both hands to fold on the turn - if you fire the second barrel. Once down the path you have chosen then you have to continue. Backing off probably cost you the hand.


The other choice is just to check the flop and fold to any real betting pressure. Given your position, the flop, and being up against unknown players, that may have been best - Choose another time to battle it out when you have better position, and know your players a little better, after all running a bluff at two players out of position is difficult.


Given your reads on your opponents throughout the hand, betting on the river with a 4 straight on board is very questionable, it is a bit late to try and buy the pot- especially after you gave the free card on the turn.


Also, You should give relative stack size of all opponents, otherwise the information is incomplete.


-Zeno

The turn card looked like it hit one or both of my opponents right between the eyes. i cant bluff here i have no outs. i had to give up the pot. but when they both checked i knew i was good. neither had a straight or they would have to bet to avoid giving a free river with a 2 flush on board. the button had to have nothing but a draw or he would bet for sure and take the pot down. when the river comes i "know" it shouldnt have helped my opponents because neither were on a straight draw. if they were the would have bet the turn with a draw plus a pair. I still think i got unlucky on the riv. if the button holds any flush draw combo w/o a Jack i win right? the stacks were sorta irrelevant we all had over 3k. Q. did the button make a bad cold call w/ kj suited? i think he did, his hand is dominated in too many ways. but some say the money was deep enough to warrant it.

I see and agree with some of your points but I sill think a big-balled pure bluff on the turn may have won you the pot -especially considering your flop bet - as that puts alot of pressure on both players. But I wasn't there so this is armchair advice. Also, I have never played pot-limit in the california card rooms and the players may be a bit more loose than I am use too.


Yes the button probably did make a questionable call even preflop- was he just playing position on you? He also called the flop knowing he had to be second best at least and would have to pay for the draw. And yes the 9 on the turn was an ugly card for you. Thats Poker. Its ugly at times.


I personally dislike being sandwiched between players (especially players I don't know) as this limits manuvering room. You may think this too conservative but I think I would have check the flop and then just mucked that AK if anyone bet a substantial amount of money given the above. But we each have our own playing styles and this may not fit your style of play.


That is my opinion, anyway. Others that post here may have a different view.


Hope you did better later on.


By the way, I have been contemplating checking out the Southern california poker clubs (casinos) this spring. Is the Commerce the only one that spreads pot-limit on a regular basis?


-Zeno

I agree totally with Zeno. betting AK out of position to a rag flop usually should be followed up with a large bet on almost any turn, if you're on the bluffsteal. As Zeno said, the other very good option is to check, and see the other player's strenghts, and dump it for cheap. someone may try to steal the pot, but you may have an opportunity to stage a re-steal.


it's important to know how much each player had, as the implied odds affect the way you should play this hand. If you were on bluff steal, ask yourself "will he fold to a big bet, to save his stack?" Some players wipe their sweaty brows when they're struggling or rattled, and therefore more prone to folding. Others will turn on the jets and lean on every hand. Try and figure out psychologically how he's doing in the game, and act on it!


Unfortunately, he happened to call the flop bet. When he calls, I would have thought he had medium pocket pair, reading you for overcards, i.e., AK, AQ. From there it just gets ugly.


A nine hits the turn. when you checked, you basically gave up the pot. Also, if he had set on the flop, his check on the turn could have been a play to induce you to bet the river. Not fun.


A T hits the river. You are light-years away from winning this hand, even though you were leading all the way up until the river. Seems like you're up against a stubborn player who's capitalizing on his position. I believe his call on the flop may have rattled you, and he read that, and bought a free card on the river just by calling on the flop.


I usually dump an AK out of position when the board comes blanks, unless i can safely represent big pair. If i choose to drive the pot in this situation, i'm usually prepared to fold to a big raise.

I agree with your thinking on the turn. You had put the player to act after you on a smallish suited connector or medium pair. If you were right, when the 9 came he was 50% to have a straight. So you couldn't bet there. You'd only be called if you were right and he had you beat.


On the river you narrowed the hands he could have. You reasoned he couldn't have had a straight since he didn't bet (which he would have done if he did to protect his hand). So you must have been thinking he had a medium pair, which you were going to try to bluff him out of.


I think you made two mistakes on the river. First of all, you said you were unfamiliar with your opponent. So you were trying to bluff him without being familiar with his habits. To make a bluff there you would want to have some idea how he would react with a medium pair in that situation (I say medium pair, because that's the only hand he could have according to your read).


The other error is you obviously misread his hand. Another logical possibility, given the way he had played until that piont, was for him to have a flush draw with a backdoor straight draw. That's an easy thing to miss, however.


The worse mistake, IMO, is that even if you were right (putting him on a medium pair), you're play would only make sense if you had reason to expect him to fold a medium pair in that situation.