Stud/8 hand: What were they thinking?

[mmcd]

75/150 Stud/8:

5 handed

I'm in the bringin with (A /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif) 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Paul Darden completes with (X X) 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

So-So guy calls with (X X) 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

4th St.

Me (A /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif) 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Paul (X X) 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SSG (X X) 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif

Check to me I bet, they both call

5th St.

Me (A /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif) 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Paul (X X) 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif

SSG (X X) 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet and they and they both call again.

6th St.

Me (A /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif) 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Paul (X X) 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/heart.gif

SSG (X X) 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Check round.

Same action on the river, SSG takes it down with 8's up

(he had 44 in the hole and caught the 8 on the river)

Paul had an offsuit A4 in the hole.

Paul's obviously a decent player,and the SSG wasn't great, but he didn't seem all that live either. My question is how the hell could either one of them call me on 5th st?

I was absolutely befuddled when I got called in 2 places.

[Andy B]

Where is this game, and who wants to put me in? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Most people suck at this game, apparently including Darden and SSG, as well as a lot of people who are very good at other games. SSG had easy folds on third, fourth, and fifth. Darden had easy folds on fourth and fifth. I don't see any other way to play your hand, though.

[Nick_Foxx]

andy, isnt paul darden and the so-so guy getting the right odds to make the call on 4th since the pot was raised on 3rd? especially considering the only person who caught scary was the bring-in, who most likely is not starting with 3 babies or he would have made it 3 bets, or completed his own bring in right off the bat

mike

[mmcd]

That's the point. I wouldn't classify either of these guys as complete idiots. With the so-so guy, theres some chance he completely sucked, but just happened to be playing "better" for a lot the time I was playing with him.

Just to answer Nick's questions:

I (almost) never bring it in for a full bet. I would much rather be able to reraise it after someone else completes.

Also, I probably wouldn't even play here if I had a bad one in the hole, like (A 9) 2 or something like that.

As for not reraising, I will often just call with good hands in this spot to help disguise those times I am floating w/o much of hand, hoping to pick the pot up based on the boards later. (usually in heads-up situations)


The game was the 75/150 O.E./H.O.E. at Foxwoods. If you get out there, its definately worth checking out. Often times, there will be several players in the game who are outright terrible.

[Michael Emery]

What terrible play from 75-150 players, they should be ashamed. I'm tempted to drive to Foxwoods now. MMCD I used to play with you in the 20-40 stud game on party, you must be sticking to more holdem lately. Seems like you kinda stopped playing stud and were just playing in the 30-60 holdem game the last few times I played with you. But that was when your sn was mmcdon, you must have changed it.

Mike Emery

[Andy B]

SSG had a pretty crappy hand to begin with. When he catches bad, he just can't call a bet. And one of his Fours has died, fer cryin' out loud. The pot was raised, but it is still pretty small. Darden doesn't even have a draw--he's drawing to a draw. He should figure that it's going to cost him at least $225 to make a low, and with Michael showing a strong board like that, I don't like a rough Seven even if I make it. Michael was the bring-in, but I don't think he tosses in the additional $50 without a pretty good hand. I think both fourth-street calls are atrocious.

BTW, Michael wasn't in a position to three-bet third. I like two-betting with a three-card Six in that spot, but a lot of people won't.

[mmcd]

Yeah, new Party name and I've been playing on Empire mostly anyways. I just haven't really felt like playing Stud lately. It looked like the games got pretty tight there for a while (just judging by the Avg. Pot display and a little quick scouting) but they seem to a look a little better now. (Although I still think the 30 holdem and 20 Omaha games are probably more profitable) Maybe I'll jump in there again later this week.

What terrible play from 75-150 players, they should be ashamed. I'm tempted to drive to Foxwoods now

You should, believe me you'll likely see much worse play than this. Just picture my opponents in this hand putting in 3 or 4 bets on every street...

Also: I'm gonna e-mail party to ask if they'll spread a 20 Stud/8 game. I'd appreciate it if anyone else who'd like to see that game would e-mail them too.

I started sending e-mails about a 30 holdem game around this time last year, and apparently enough other people were doing it, so they put one in.

If they get a 20 stud/8 game going, I have a feeling it would be the most profitable game on the site.

[AlanBostick]

[ QUOTE ]
Andy, isnt paul darden and the so-so guy getting the right odds to make the call on 4th since the pot was raised on 3rd?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know what the structure of the game is, but I'm going to guess: $15 ante, low card brings it in for $25, completion makes it $75 to go.

If the game is full, there is $120 in the pot to start. Three-way action for a completion, including the bring-in hand, adds $225 to the pot, for a totalof $345. That's 4.6 small bets.

Even if Paul were sitting to the bring-in's right, he'd still be getting a mere 6.6:1 for his call. That's not enough to make it the right price. (If there had been a raise after the completion, with three-way action, the call might be appropriate.)

I've only played with Paul once, in the $50-$100 stud/8 game at Binion's during the 2003 WSOP. He didn't play egregiously badly (and, trust me, other players did /images/graemlins/grin.gif). He did at one point fold to a raise when he had a four in the door. He showed me his cards as he folded, (another four and an offsuit ten) and he said, "Sometimes I'll play these cards, but not right now.") I assumed at the time he was making some kind of image play, trying to make it look like one of the easiest laydowns in this game was a play he was reluctant to make. Reading this thread, I'm not so sure.

[Joe Tall]

Being somewhat new to stud8 but training for the very game you are playing; I have a few questions:

You did raise on 3rd brining it in full for $75, correct? What is the ante/bring in this game?
What do you mean that Paul, "completes", or did you not raise the bring and he did?

I am surprised you got called on 5th, I can't imagine why.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[kirbyatihop]

obviosuly paul darden and the ssg are crap in stud and were going fishing (god only knows for what)

[Chris Daddy Cool]

don't you want them to call on 5th with their sh*tty hands? that's what makes this game so profitable.

[Andy B]

You have the structure right for this game. It's a very high ante, but it isn't high enough to be taking cards off in the situation described.

I really hope I can make it out to Vegas during next year's Series for some of those stud/8 games.

[Joe Tall]

Andy,

Do you like a third street raise? Given our hero's hand is live? How about a re-raise after Paul raises?

In a 5 handed game w/live hand, I sure do.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Andy B]

$15 ante, $25 bring-in. "Complete" means to make it a full bet. It's not quite the same as a raise. Hero brought it in for the $25 minimum and Darden completed the bet to $75.

If Christmas is in CT this year, and this home game is able to sustain itself, maybe I'll be pumped up enough to play in this game with you too. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Andy B]

I tend to bring it in for the minimum with almost all of my hands, as I like to use the limp/re-raise thing liberally to keep my opponents off-balance. I wouldn't re-raise in this case, as there's a pretty fair chance that I'm behind in both directions, and also a good chance that I'll hate my hand on fourth or fifth street. I do bring it in for a full bet more often in a short-handed game, and I think that this would have been a fine spot for it. You're basically laying $50 to win $100 (your bring-in is already gone), and you have lots of possibilities if you get played with. There's also a decent chance that you'll have position throughout the hand.

[AlanBostick]

Don't do that! They're terrible games! The only people who play in them are flinty fossils who spend their time stealing the antes from each other, complaining about the dealers, and bitching about how they can't find the floorman to give them a buffet comp.

See my blog (http://www.spicejar.org/asiplease/archives/000202.html) to find out precisely why I'm warning you away from these games.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't do that! They're terrible games! The only people who play in them are flinty fossils who spend their time stealing the antes from each other, complaining about the dealers, and bitching about how they can't find the floorman to give them a buffet comp.


[/ QUOTE ]

Alan,

What you dont' understand is that the game in question is the biggest game in town out East within 300 miles. This mixed game is notorious for it's greatness.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[AlanBostick]

[ QUOTE ]
What you dont' understand is that the game in question is the biggest game in town out East within 300 miles. This mixed game is notorious for it's greatness.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was responding to Andy's I really hope I can make it out to Vegas during next year's Series for some of those stud/8 games.

By all means, Andy, come to Las Vegas for the WSOP. But when you're there, don't play any stud/8 higher than 20-40. This isn't the game you're looking for. He can go about his business. Move along.

[Bill Murphy]

When are we pooling "bankrolls"[giggle] and moving to Foxwoods; the start of the tournament thru the Orange Bowl, maybe?

BTW should anyone have bet 6th?

[mmcd]

On 6th when Darden caught the A and the other guy was showing a 4 liner, I knew neither one of them was folding, and also that I needed to improve to win. Neither one of them could really bet into my board with 1 pair either. You could almost make a case for Darden betting out in an attempt to get heads up with me, but the other guy behind him was showing T986.

[Andy B]

I have a friend who plays in those $50/100 games and says they're good. Reading through your report, it sounds like they're sometimes playable/sometimes not. I can play when they're playable, and play $20/40 or hold'em or stud or whatever when they're not, and when all else fails, there's always beer.

So I have your permission to play in the stud and stud/8 tournaments?

It was kind of amusing to read all about Andrew and Debbie. My kid sister's name is Debbie. I do believe Andrew used to post here about a hundred years ago.

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