Good Checkraise?

[DeuceHigh80]

I'm trying to work more check raising into my game... Is this an appropriate place to check raise to protect TPGK against a dangerous flop?

I wasn't really sure where to slow down here if at all on the later streets. CO and Button were both pretty loose passive so their calls on the flop and turn could indicate anything (I was guessing flush draws?)

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.5. CO posts a blind of $0.75.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (9.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

[Entity]

This is a great time to do it. You've got a weak made hand, and it'd be nice to knock out as many draws as possible. The only concern I have is how you knew button or CO would bet. Are they generally the type to bet when checked to? The times where this approach is really tough are when you check, and someone in EP bets.

Nice hand overall, though. Worked out well.

Rob

[DeuceHigh80]

The table was pretty passive but I hadn't seen very many hands check all the way around especially with that many people in the hand.

It worked out real well until button and CO both revealed flopped flushes and button even had the nut flush? There's passive and then there's comatose...

Of course button is the same guy that later in the night called all the way to the river with a pair of 5's when the board was double paired with queens and 8's and every street was capped. Which one of those 5's is your kicker? /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[easypete]

What did you hope to accomplish with the check/raise here?

Who was going to bet this flop, and why do you think they were going to bet?

[DeuceHigh80]

My thought was I get the bet from anyone with a mid to high spade. Then I get information as to what shape I'm in if I get reraised by anyone with a made flush in which case I slow down. I was hoping to thin the field to just those on strong flush draws and then if blanks hit on the turn or river I have a chance of still being good.

Why would leading out on the flop be better? Or should I just check / fold to one bet because this is too dangerous to continue with only TPGK?

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
I was hoping to thin the field to just those on strong flush draws

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying that going for a c/r is wrong.

My decision to bet or c/r on the flop is based on something a little more than just wanting to increase my c/r%.

I first determine what I want to accomplish w/ my flop actions. The two main things i'm trying to do is:

1. Build a pot.
2. Reduce the field.

If I have a strong drawing hand, and building a pot is +EV (ie. 4 opponents when you have flopped a 4-flush draw to the nuts), then I want to build a pot. So whether I bet or c/r depends on my postion to the pfr. I want to put as many bets into the pot as possible while it's still +EV.

In your position, you don't have a pfr. What does the c/r accomplish? It's very nice that a LP player (CO) bets. In this case, I would have raised. That's nice that it worked out like that.

If I'm playing your hand... I'm betting the flop. I think you'll learn more about your hand and not risk giving a free card to many opponents that may be drawing.

Without a pfr, I don't think you can enter the flop with a plan. And I think that trying for a c/r without knowing who is going to bet can be dangerous. In this hand, if the BB leads out, then what?

[DeuceHigh80]

Thanks Pete... That gives me a lot more to think about next time.

[MagicRat]

Question for you...

My first inclination would have been to bet out too but then I'm wondering if going for the C/R isn't the better play. Here's my (faulty /images/graemlins/tongue.gif) logic...

If I bet out immediately, anyone with a 5 or 9 has the odds (8.5 to 1) to call and stick around. Granted, I don't know who, if anyone, might bet out, but the board seems so scary anyway that I could be far behind. Couldn't more information be found out in this instance by waiting and seeing. Flush draws aren't going to go away regardless of what I do so isn't there more value in trying for the C/R?? I'm so confused... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
Flush draws aren't going to go away regardless of what I do so isn't there more value in trying for the C/R??

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's change the scenario a little. Let's say that the button on this hand riased, and you called w/ KQo. Then 100% of the time, absolutely, positively, go or the c/r. This is absolutely more +EV. It will, more than likely, get checked to the button, and the button, more than likely, will bet. You can raise then. At this point, you will have to fear the calls, for they will either have the flush, the A/images/graemlins/spade.gif or Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Now let's change the situation again. Let's say you completed in the SB w/ KQo (I would raise, but eh... let's say you completed) and the BB raises. Now what? I want the draws to call 2 bets cold here, so I will bet into the BB and hope that the BB does his job and raises. This is where you get your information. Also, betting into the pfr may make even good draws fold, because they may fear you have a strong enough hand to bet into the pfr.

Neiter of these situations happened tho, so you have no information on the possible flop action. How would you feel if the flop got checked through? You probably have the best hand right now. Anyone with a /images/graemlins/spade.gif will get infinite odds to see the turn if checked through. Yes, they may have 9 outs, and are about 1.9:1 to make it, but that's only 1 in 3 times they will actually get a /images/graemlins/spade.gif. So you are a favorite to win the hand (asuming that TP2K will win it).

So, with poker being a game of incomplete information, how do you procede?

1. I hate to give a free card w/ a decent hand.
2. Against 6 opponents, there is only about a 24% chance there is a made flush out there and you're drawing almost dead.
3. You have no information where a bet, if any, is coming on the flop.
4. Peatnut-butter and jelly sandwiches still taste good after 30.

So with all this, I'm betting here. I think you will get more information about where you stand and how to procede with the hand post flop.

Just my 2 cents.