Doom Themed Poker Chips

[Damageinc333]

I have created a very rough draft of the chips Im designing based on the Doom video game. For those who havent read my previous posts on the topic. The Idea of these chips is to have different monsters from the game the weaker monsters will be on the low value chips while the stronger monsters will be on the higher value chips. I am open to group buys if there is any interest in this at all, otherwise Ill be getting these made for myself either way. Right now tho I am at the phase where I need advice/comments. I dont like the text on it "Doomed Poker Club" and I am actually against denominations. My problem is the chips look too empty without the text, so If i remove what is there then what do i put in its place? Ive been thinking for 2 weeks for what to do with the text and have been drawing blanks. The doom sprites are low resolution and look "pixely" when working with these chips in photoshop, but after they get printed at actual size the pixelation effect will be reduced. (ive done some prints to size)

Right now everything is up in the air for revision except the theme and the monsters. The breakdown on monsters/colors will be as follows (in order of value low to high)

White: Shotgun Sargent
http://img80.exs.cx/img80/6550/SARGE1.gif

Red: Imp
http://img80.exs.cx/img80/9572/IMP.gif

Blue: Demon
http://img80.exs.cx/img80/1475/DEMON.gif

Green: Baron from Hell
http://img80.exs.cx/img80/4937/baron.gif

Black: CyberDemon
http://img80.exs.cx/img80/587/CYBER.gif

Here is a small render of the actual chip.
(click thumbnail to view actual size)
http://img5.exs.cx/img5/6901/doomchip.th.jpg (http://img5.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img5&image=doomchip.jpg)

Here is a render at the original resolution im working with (click thumbnail to view actual size)
http://img80.exs.cx/img80/8306/doomchiplrg.th.jpg (http://img80.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img80&image=doomchiplrg.jpg)

[ClonexxSA]

They look cool, but you should definitely check into the legality of it before you go any further.

I am under the impression that any kind of copywritten material can not be used, and I am pretty sure all that is the property of ID Software.

I think its a really cool idea, as I am an old school gamer and grew up on Wolfenstein and Doom =) But you may want to check into the legal side of using that stuff before you put all this effort in.

[Damageinc333]

id has no contact info on their site, I DID send an email to John Romero website (http://www.rome.ro/) who no longer works for id but worked on the original Doom. I stated my intentions and what I was doing with these chips. In the past id has seemed pretty cool with letting fans use Doom resources for other projects, not to mention Doom itself is now open source. I am not doing this to make money, rather I am a hardcore gamer who still plays Doom to this day, It is my all time favorite game, I collect anything Doom related I can get my hands on. As of yet I havent heard back from Mr. Romero, but hopefully I will.

[TenPercenter]

You're on track I think. I'd make sure that the MOB is a little bigger on the chip though.

Ten

[ClonexxSA]

Oh I understand you arent trying to make money, I was just making sure the legal aspect was covered is all. I would hate to see you go through all this work only to be shut down by the chip manufacturer over a legal issue.

[Tron]

[ QUOTE ]
Right now everything is up in the air for revision except the theme and the monsters. The breakdown on monsters/colors will be as follows (in order of value low to high)

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to say it'd be neat to have one of the round monsters (Cacodemon?) on the chips, because, being round and all, they would fit nicely... But then I read that, so forget I ever said anything.

[Damageinc333]

If i do a 6th color then It would probably be caco. rank wise he would go between Demon and Baron from hell. I guess I shouldent rule anything out and I do like the Caco, it would have to be a 6th chip tho, I think the 5 monsters I picked are the most identifyable with Classic Doom. If i did a 6th chip, cyber demon would move up to purple, Baron would go to black and caco would go to green, the rest would stay the same.

[Damageinc333]

here is a 2nd revision, I took away the text and added the Doom logo, brightened up the background, and increased the size of the monster. Suggestions/Comments?

http://img17.exs.cx/img17/1309/doomrev1.jpg

and here is a differnt denomination.
http://img17.exs.cx/img17/7760/doomrev1demon.jpg

[Nemesis]

Does the pixelation not bother you? I think the chip looks great, but you're limited by the original resolution of the mobs.

[TenPercenter]

[ QUOTE ]
Does the pixelation not bother you? I think the chip looks great, but you're limited by the original resolution of the mobs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damageinc333, what if you could find some full rez images of the MOBs somewhere? I'd bet there are plenty out there. That would do Doom more justice on your chips I think. It wouldn't be desecration of the game.

Ten

[edit] p.s. ID even used "non in-game" graphics on the box and in other promotions...

http://doomworld.com/pageofdoom/images.html

And something like... (beware, large image)

http://www.planetquake.com/quake_the_wall/images/dm3_artwork2.jpg

http://www.3doxtreme.com/customart/Doom.jpg

[Murilo]

this kicks ass

[Damageinc333]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Does the pixelation not bother you? I think the chip looks great, but you're limited by the original resolution of the mobs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damageinc333, what if you could find some full rez images of the MOBs somewhere? I'd bet there are plenty out there. That would do Doom more justice on your chips I think. It wouldn't be desecration of the game.

Ten

[edit] p.s. ID even used "non in-game" graphics on the box and in other promotions...

http://doomworld.com/pageofdoom/images.html

And something like... (beware, large image)

http://www.planetquake.com/quake_the_wall/images/dm3_artwork2.jpg

http://www.3doxtreme.com/customart/Doom.jpg



[/ QUOTE ]

theres not enough "clean" artistic renditions of the graphics of all the monsters. I would want them all from the same artist for consistancy, my other option is to use Doom3 screenshots or use a Doom sourceport and grab screens of the 3d modeled doom monsters, problem with that option is I wanted to keep this more in the flavor of classic doom, and with using the 3d models they dont look like the original mobs (now you got me saying that word, lol). when you do the math the resolution of the chips im working on is 300dpi except the mobs which are either 150dpi or 100dpi depending on the mob and how much I scale it up. You figure the chip is 1.5" on the printout mockups ive done this isnt as much of a concern as it seems. It just looks bad when its displayed at 7" on your computer monitor. Will it be perfect? no, but unless I can get someone from id to give me access to all the concept art, im kind of limited on options. Cyber demons (what you posted) and Barons from hell are easy to find, Shotgun sargents and Imps and demons are a bit harder. I am open to options tho, I will look around and ask around a bit more for higher resolution art.

Thanks for all the feedback and opinions (good or bad) keep them coming /images/graemlins/smile.gif Bad feedback is better then no Feedback.

oh, and heres the cyberdemon rendition (i think this one turned out the best so far)
http://img29.exs.cx/img29/208/doomrev1cyber.jpg
-Tom

[italianstang]

Those are/would be really cool looking chips, everyone agrees, and even if the monsters are pixelized and the DOOM is really sharp looking, I still think its kind of cool, gives it some character.

HOWEVER, aside from legal stuff, you realize that depending on what chip company you use, you are gonna have to pay like 150-250 per graphic you want to use. This unfortunately adds a lot of money to the overall cost. When I first started screwing around with photoshop to see what I wanted mine to look like, I didn't take that in to account.

[italianstang]

Why is someone named Baron from Hell wearing khaki dress pants and sandals?

[Damageinc333]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is someone named Baron from Hell wearing khaki dress pants and sandals?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, The Khakis I cant explain, mebbe its made from skin? but as far as the sandals, those are hooves /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Damageinc333]

Hello, for those of you following this thread I sent an email to Todd Hollenshead who is the head of licencing at id software. Below is my email and below that is his responce. Email address's removed to protect the innocent /images/graemlins/smile.gif So it looks like I can get this done. Just to ensure that these chips cant be used for business use, I have to at this point insist on not having denominations. Is there anyone interested in participating in a group buy if/when it comes down to that? Honestly getting into the holidays money for me is going to be tight, so after the new year is probably when im going to start trying to make this happen.

----start paste----
Hello Todd,

I want to make poker chips based on the Original Doom game. The idea that the chips would feature the different monsters on each chip (low value chips will have weak monsters on them Soldier, imp, etc... and the higher value chips will have the stronger monsters (baron from hell, Cyberdemon). I want to use sprites straight from the game as well as screenshots from the game as the background. These chips will be for my personal use only and wont even actually have denominations printed on them. I am probably looking at getting 1000 of these made. The problem I have is, I want to seek permission to use these graphics for this purpose. There isn't a chip manufacture who will print these unless I get express written permission from the copyright holder (id software). Eventually I want to get Custom Playing cards made as well as dealer buttons, big/little blind buttons, etc. It will make the Friday night poker games I have a little more exciting then using the run of the mill generic dice themed chips I have now. I don't know if you can help me secure permission in my venture but it never hurts to ask. I stand to make NO money off of this, I am doing this as a fan of the game, over the years I've collected any doom related stuff I can get my hands on. I've bought Several copies of Doom and Doom2 just to get some of the extras inside (posters, miniatures, etc). If id software requires copyright information on the chips I would be willing to do whatever it takes to get this done.

Thanks,
-Tom

P.S. here's some examples of what I am trying to do

http://img17.exs.cx/img17/1309/doomrev1.jpg
http://img17.exs.cx/img17/7760/doomrev1demon.jpg
http://img29.exscx/img29/208/doomrev1cyber.jpg

----end paste----
----start paste----
Sounds like a fun idea, and I don't have any problem with it. I really don't think that getting customized one-off sets of things like this for personal use pose any significant copyright concern for anyone. But here's the rub, I can't grant you official permission without all of it going through our attorneys. That process is time consuming and costly, which makes it something that I'm unwilling to do.

I like the Cyberdemon as the black chip ;-)

tsh
----End Paste----

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
So it looks like I can get this done

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I misreading his response? I don't know how you come to the conclusion that you can get it done when the response says:

[ QUOTE ]
But here's the rub, I can't grant you official permission without all of it going through our attorneys. That process is time consuming and costly, which makes it something that I'm unwilling to do.


[/ QUOTE ]

[nuclear500]

His response to the question isn't clear.

I think the last piece is in regards to his chips being officially "id sanctioned".

I think he can go right ahead and do it if he wants, but if he attempts to sell or use the chips in any manner that provide him with a source of income (rake games), then he'll be in for a world of hurt.

[elwoodblues]

The question is whether the chip manufacturer can move forward because they are making a profit off of copyrighted material (not whether the purchaser can move ahead.) It isn't the seller's attempt to sell that the chip manufacturer is worried about --- it is their own.

[italianstang]

It looks pretty clear like he is saying no, and that he can't help you out with the express written consent thing. You need to find a chip manufacturer who doesn't care about copyright or is too clueless to know what the hell that is, hooray for Blue Chip Co!

[Damageinc333]

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't think that getting customized one-off sets of things like this for personal use pose any significant copyright concern for anyone.

[/ QUOTE ] I think by "one-off" he means getting a one production run made for personal use. Basically the impression i get is, they dont care im not hurting anyone or anything. They arnt gonna waste their time and money tying up their legal department with it to get me approval. The chip company is going to be making a profit either way, they arnt making money off the copyright material, they are making a profit off the service they provide. If i cant get this design through Im just going to custom design something else, either way they are going to make their money by providing their service, the design is irrelivant. I think the chip companys just dont want to get sued for printing something thats copyright trying to provide their service, based on that email I dont think thats going to be an issue.

It would be a different story if a chip company offered "limited edition doom chips" to the masses and marketed that way, thats making money off the likeness, and I think thats what id (or any other company) is trying to protect themselves against.

[Mojo Tooth]

I think it's just a case of everyone trying to Cover Their Ass (tm).

The chip company knows good and well that making a poker chip set for personal use will probably never generate any signfiicant legal action against them. But in order to not have to defend against any legal action, which is always expensive, they try to Cover Their Ass by making you get explicit permission.

Hollenshead knows exactly the same thing, but in order to protect his job he tells you that he doesn't have the power to make that decision and furthermore won't personally champion it for you. He's Covering His Ass.

The lawyers, of course, will probably never assent to it, because they want to reserve the option of justifying their existence with stupid and pointless lawsuits against a chip making company or a poker player who is just a fan of their game.

This is how our society works nowadays. Everybody is so busy Covering Their Ass that common sense no longer applies.

[elwoodblues]

It's not a question of covering their collective asses. It is a protection of intellectual property. The chip manufacturer should not be able to profit from the unauthorized use of protected material. They are almost certainly charging "art" fees for copying someone else's work.

[Mojo Tooth]

We've already established that a "one-off" sort of thing hardly qualifies as the chip maker profiting from unauthorized use of someone else's material. At least in the eyes of Todd Hollenshead, who is the CEO of id software and would appear to have a more vested interest than you or I.

So the only thing preventing him from giving the green light was just to keep the lawyers happy.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
We've already established that a "one-off" sort of thing hardly qualifies as the chip maker profiting from unauthorized use of someone else's material

[/ QUOTE ]

I have never seen this "established." Id very well might not care (because it is a one-off) but that doesn't change the fact that the chip maker is charging money to sell a protected image. It would be no different than if I sold you a burned copy of a movie. I would be profiting from selling someone else's protected material.

[ QUOTE ]
So the only thing preventing him from giving the green light was just to keep the lawyers happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe. It might also be that he used the lawyers as an excuse so that he looked like the good guy and the lawyers were the bad guys. I think either is equally likely.

[Mojo Tooth]

blah blah blah

Anyways... what's the future plan now, Damage?

[Damageinc333]

I am still going to push forward with this design. A) Because I enjoy working on this project, and B) Cuz i feel like it. Ill deal with chipco and copyrights when it comes to that. I am nearing my final design, Only things left Im not entirly thrilled about are the edge stripes (I might go to 3 or 4 solid stripes) and I might add a 6th Purple Chip. But anyway, here is the near final draft.

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/8886/rev1layout4.jpg

[TenPercenter]

[ QUOTE ]
I am still going to push forward with this design. A) Because I enjoy working on this project, and B) Cuz i feel like it. Ill deal with chipco and copyrights when it comes to that. I am nearing my final design, Only things left Im not entirly thrilled about are the edge stripes (I might go to 3 or 4 solid stripes) and I might add a 6th Purple Chip. But anyway, here is the near final draft.

http://img29.exs.cx/img29/8886/rev1layout4.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

I take back everything I said. These look great. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Ten

[elwoodblues]

You might consider changing either the green stripe on the white chip or the white stripe on the green chip. If they get stacked together, it might be tough to quickly spot which is which.

[Damageinc333]

[ QUOTE ]
You might consider changing either the green stripe on the white chip or the white stripe on the green chip. If they get stacked together, it might be tough to quickly spot which is which.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was honestly thinking the same thing, Im still not entirly sure on these color combinations

http://img25.exs.cx/img25/559/rev1layout.jpg

[TabascoJRC]

I would pull the colors out of the images.

use the muted green from the walls
the bright red from the fireball etc

[TenPercenter]

[ QUOTE ]
I would pull the colors out of the images.

use the muted green from the walls
the bright red from the fireball etc

[/ QUOTE ]

Listen to this guy, he's a graphic artist. [not kidding]

Ten

[Fins]

The graphics turned out great. I definitely agree with the edge colors being puuled from the graphics. I can't decide if I like the solid banding though... I was thinking more like a rock wall or possibly rivited steel instead of a solid color... just an idea.

The chips are really comming along, nice job.

Good luck on the legalities,
Fins

[Damageinc333]

I tried pulling colors from the walls and such, but in the case of the green it looked to pasty and dull. With the blue it was too grayish. I do like the idea of textures as the ring tho, If i get time tonight Im going to play around with that idea, Ill post the results. Also the green is taken from the green fireball and the red is taken from the red fireball (the darker shading in it) the black and white arnt taken from anything. the blue and orange were orignally taken from the Doom logo, but i had to saturate them more, because originally it looked too dull. Im still going to play around with ideas, but I think the centers are pretty much final, thanks everyone for the feedback, it has been most helpfull. Keep it coming.

Thanks,
-Tom

[Fins]

[ QUOTE ]
I tried pulling colors from the walls and such, but in the case of the green it looked to pasty and dull. With the blue it was too grayish. I do like the idea of textures as the ring tho, If i get time tonight Im going to play around with that idea, Ill post the results. Also the green is taken from the green fireball and the red is taken from the red fireball (the darker shading in it) the black and white arnt taken from anything. the blue and orange were orignally taken from the Doom logo, but i had to saturate them more, because originally it looked too dull. Im still going to play around with ideas, but I think the centers are pretty much final, thanks everyone for the feedback, it has been most helpfull. Keep it coming.

Thanks,
-Tom

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you could look at using a gradient as opposed to more appealing shades??

[warewulf]

Just chiming in -- great idea! I am a huge fan of the Doom series. I'm about half way through Doom 3 right now. I skimmed through the other messages, don't know if anyone has mentioned this -- maybe you can get some images from the manuals?

Otherwise, have you checked out GL Doom? It's a pain to get running, but the graphics have totally been re-done to utilize common graphics cards. One engine uses a modded Quake 2 engine to run the game. It uses standard pwad files and looks great. Well better anyway. Were these actual screen shots?

At any rate, the pixelization doesn't look as bad when it's scaled on a Poker chip.

Warewulf

[Damageinc333]

Ive played just about all the source ports. Ive even tried my hand at making my own pwads. I used a sourceport (zdoom) to take the background shots I used software render tho, because I wanted it to look like classic doom, I didnt want it to look like GLdoom. I ripped the sprites of the monsters out of the wad, so i could position and control there arrangement better.

On the topic of sourceports, I think the best is Doomsday Doom Remake. It uses modeled enemys and items, and Highresolution textures for the walls and such, so when you walk up to a wall, it doesnt pixelate /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The pixelation on my chips is there and will be noticable to a degree, Honestly I kind of like it, it reminds me of of my old doom playing days, and helps sell the theme of the chips.

[Damageinc333]

ok folks, sorry for being MIA for the past while, Ive been busy with work and such. Anywho, Ive been working on these chips some more and have made some changes. First off Ive decided to add denominations, and to use casino standard colors. The exception being the 25cent and 50cent chips since I cant seem to find a standard for those, I doubt casinos even use chips for denominations so low. Im not entirly happy with some of the colors, but trying to come up with 10 different colors have have decent contrast from each other is difficult.

Without further delay

http://img17.exs.cx/img17/2725/10chipssml1ev.jpg

-Tom

[TenPercenter]

[ QUOTE ]
ok folks, sorry for being MIA for the past while, Ive been busy with work and such. Anywho, Ive been working on these chips some more and have made some changes. First off Ive decided to add denominations, and to use casino standard colors. The exception being the 25cent and 50cent chips since I cant seem to find a standard for those, I doubt casinos even use chips for denominations so low. Im not entirly happy with some of the colors, but trying to come up with 10 different colors have have decent contrast from each other is difficult.

Without further delay

http://img17.exs.cx/img17/2725/10chipssml1ev.jpg

-Tom

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty good job man. All your colors are great but the .25 and .50. I'd find a more stark color for those. You don't have a yellow yet. And hot pink?

The .25 shares the same two colors as the $25, might be a lot of confusion with that.

Ten

[TenPercenter]

I've forgotten, do you plan to have these custom made as is, or make lebels for stock chips?

Ten

[Tron]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!! These are SICK!!!

[Damageinc333]

[ QUOTE ]
I've forgotten, do you plan to have these custom made as is, or make lebels for stock chips?

Ten

[/ QUOTE ]

I am going to go all out and get them custom made. Also while i got your attention, I got some chipco samples, how does your egyption customs stack up (no pun intended) to the samples? Anything i should know about dealing with chipco? also, you been watching Discovery channel this week? They are having a whole egyption week, pretty interesting stuff /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Tom

[TenPercenter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've forgotten, do you plan to have these custom made as is, or make lebels for stock chips?

Ten

[/ QUOTE ]

I am going to go all out and get them custom made. Also while i got your attention, I got some chipco samples, how does your egyption customs stack up (no pun intended) to the samples? Anything i should know about dealing with chipco? also, you been watching Discovery channel this week? They are having a whole egyption week, pretty interesting stuff /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-Tom

[/ QUOTE ]

My Egyptians are the same of better than my Chipco samples. I got three $25 "Chipco International" samples from them. I also had a Luxor $1 in great shape. I could find no flaws in the samples.

Ten

[warewulf]

Hopefully you wont get fragged with art charges! I'm pretty sure that even if you do your own art, they are going to charge you per separate design. It's a sweet set though! I wish I could afford to get a set of these. I've been a huge Doom fan since Doom 2. I'm about half way through Doom 3 right now.

[Damageinc333]

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty good job man. All your colors are great but the .25 and .50. I'd find a more stark color for those. You don't have a yellow yet. And hot pink?

The .25 shares the same two colors as the $25, might be a lot of confusion with that.

Ten

[/ QUOTE ]

Took some of your suggestions into consideration, here is the results.

http://img131.exs.cx/img131/3825/10chipssml8qd.jpg

[Slow Play Ray]

Nice work man!

So who's up on designing the original Wolfenstein 3D set??? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[TenPercenter]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice work man!

So who's up on designing the original Wolfenstein 3D set??? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

With my graphics skills!? I'll take a challenge to do PONG maybe... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Ten

[warewulf]

Thought you might be interested -- Doom board game: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/31/doom_boardgame/

If it wasn't $55, I'd buy it just to get the plastic game pieces!