Go for overcalls or raise away?

[bakku]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)
UTG+2 is loose passive, MP1 is passive, no read on the rest

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero's action?

Raise the turn or call?

[TheLance]

Because it is such a small pot, I'm also afraid that a raise on the turn will blast everyone away.
I think raising the flop would have been a good choice. You clearly have the equity to raise for value, and it would have been easier for them to call the smaller bet.
The larger pot makes it easier to get calls on the turn raise, too.

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
Because it is such a small pot, I'm also afraid that a raise on the turn will blast everyone away.
I think raising the flop would have been a good choice. You clearly have the equity to raise for value, and it would have been easier for them to call the smaller bet.
The larger pot makes it easier to get calls on the turn raise, too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously I missed a c/r on the flop when button failed to bet, but yea raising sometime on the flop would have been good.

[Barry]

I like to play my small sets fast, so I like to bet here, but being presented with the potential opportunity to checkraise the field on the flop is hard to pass up.

On the turn, all kinds of draws are floating around that are drawing dead to you, so raise and hope they call 2 cold. You might even get lucky and MP1 has a 6 and you can cap the turn trapping the draws in between.

[pokerkai]

Id go for the overcalls...
The straight or a slowplayed trip might check raise here giving you the oppurtinity for a juicy 3 bet.
And youll get a flush chaser coming a long im sure.

[Brian]

Raise for the reasons Barry stated.

-Brian

[PhatTBoll]

Hindsight is always 20/20, but I think I bet this flop. You just miss too many bets if it gets checked through.
I think calling the turn is fine. The pot is not big, and you want to give those gutshots a chance to draw.

[bisonbison]

Hindsight is always 20/20, but I think I bet this flop.

A 3/6 button will bet this flop a lot. I like bakku's line so far. I am not sure what I'd do on the turn.

[PhatTBoll]

Yeah, I definitely don't hate going for the checkraise into such a large field, but I often see the last actor/preflop take the free card to try to spike a pair with his overcards in this situation.

[Gatts]

I think you've got too strong a hand to raise in this situation. You don't really have to protect anything, so hope everyone comes along for the ride drawing dead. They'll happily call.

[cnfuzzd]

Call and raise the river unless one of the five deathly terrible cards come. I do this only because i want the overcalls.

I too like my sets fast but with six to the flop, i too couldnt pass up this c/r opportunity. Also, you dont have a set, you have a full house, which as was pointed out leaves most of your opponent drawing dead. So i think you can afford to give a cheap card for the sake of a few bets. Also, the river could easily give someone a hand worth betting out or at least calling your raise. However, i dont think going for overcalls on the river is really all that terrible.

peace

john nickle

[PhatTBoll]

That post should say "last actor/preflop raiser ". Thank you.

[bakku]

Id go for the overcalls...
The straight or a slowplayed trip might check raise here giving you the oppurtinity for a juicy 3 bet.

After the flop gets checked through a turned straight or flopped trips is most likely betting out.

And youll get a flush chaser coming a long im sure.

Wouldn't that be a reason to raise? They'll call a turn raise but won't call a river bet.

[Michael Davis]

Post deleted by Michael Davis

[bakku]

Bet the flop.

Why wouldn't you go for a c/r?

[Michael Davis]

Well, I deleted my post, because I didn't even realize this was your intent, and also because you didn't ask this question, so I was just being a dick.

That being said, I would have bet the flop. The button doesn't always bet, and nobody ever expects you to have it when you bet a flop like this. They stick around with their garbage overcard draws anyways.

-Michael

[bakku]

That being said, I would have bet the flop. The button doesn't always bet, and nobody ever expects you to have it when you bet a flop like this. They stick around with their garbage overcard draws anyways.

Good point. If the button raises and forces the field to call two cold, the pot is big enough that the looser players are calling with their overcards and crap draws anyway. Not to mention I can get in a 3-bet with this line. Also, having this flop get checked through would horribly suck.

[Michael Davis]

I don't think it horribly sucks to get this flop checked through, but I do think you have a chance of getting something like 88 or a turned pair to go off for way more bets by fastplaying this. And maybe a few *extra* bets out of a 6.

-Michael

[bakku]

On the turn, all kinds of draws are floating around that are drawing dead to you, so raise and hope they call 2 cold. You might even get lucky and MP1 has a 6 and you can cap the turn trapping the draws in between.

I'm not saying I shouldn't raise the turn (I'm still undecided), but here are some thoughts on just calling. Let me know what you guys think.

For some reason I had a brain fart after the flop got checked through and I didn't have a plan for what happened on the turn. At the time, I was thinking that the pot is now relatively small and my raise would give people behind me only 9:2 odds on their turn calls. A flush draw is calling either way, but overcards and gutshots that might call one bet are likely not calling two. A good river card may also get one of the EP players to bet into the field trapping everyone.

[bakku]

So I decided to just call the turn and pop the river, until the river counterfeit my hand. I'm still not convinced either way on the turn play.


Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, Button folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

River: (10.16 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 12.16 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 12.16 BB, between UTG+2 and MP1.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Split: UTG+2 (6.08 BB), MP1 (6.08 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG+2 has 9d 4s (full house, sixes full of nines).
MP1 has 9s Kd (full house, sixes full of nines).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 6.08 BB. MP1 wins 6.08 BB. </font>

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, all kinds of draws are floating around that are drawing dead to you, so raise and hope they call 2 cold. You might even get lucky and MP1 has a 6 and you can cap the turn trapping the draws in between.

[/ QUOTE ]

Barry I have to disagree with you here. It's true that a flush draw will usually call two cold here, but a gutshot almost certainly won't, and overcards almost certainly won't. 87 already got there. Even something like T9 could get scared facing two bets cold. I think calling is the better play by a fair margin here.

[Alobar]

I didnt read all the responses, so bear that in mind

I think the flop play (I read a couple responses questioning this) is fine. 90% of the time the button is betting this, no reason to not go for the c/r,

The turn is a pretty easy call IMO, the pot is pretty small so forcing everyone to call 2 big bets is likely just causing them to fold. Its likely everyone is drawing dead to you, your raise will scream 6, and if no one else has one you arnt getting anything from this.

If there were less people in the pot or the pot was bigger, or there were a few callers between the original bettor and you I would raise, but there isnt so I'm not

[Alobar]

edited to reflect my innability to read

I dont like the river fold

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
edited to reflect my innability to read

I dont like the river fold

[/ QUOTE ]

With a passive MP1 betting the turn/river what can I beat here?

[Barry]

That river card was awful...

Nate, if we are to assume that the other players think even a little, and you just call, they don't really have the odds to draw to a gutshot on the turn and drawing to overcards on a paired and 2 flush board wouldn't be a very good play either. So we shouldn't expect them to call the turn anyway. So I still think you should try to get more bets from the folks that "should" call.

In this hand, we also see why it is better to play small sets (and underfulls) fast.

[DyessMan89]

Just call. You have good position, theres not much action show, and theres not much in the pot.

Raise on river of cource.