KJo.

[Entity]

I just sat down at this table, so it's unfortunately absent any reads. I'm really mainly wondering if 8:1 actual odds is good enough for my flop call, given the implied odds if I hit. Also interested in turn call vs. turn raise.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, Hero calls, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, SB folds.

River: (7.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls (all-in), Hero raises, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

[meep_42]

I'm putting that at 6 outs (3-K, 1.5 for backdoor straight, 1.5 for discouted J outs), so I think it's probably borderline, but good.

-d

[Rico Suave]

Entity:

Consider a preflop raise.

Consider a flop raise.

Raise the turn.

Whewww! finally a raise!

--Rico

[radek2166]

I am rasieing that hand preflop more than 60% of the time.

[detruncate]

I might have raised pf, but whatever.

You're actually looking at 7:1 on the flop, no? You're also not thrilled if a diamond falls, for the redraw possibilities if nothing else. I'd give myself about 4-4.5 outs, depending on how optimistic I was feeling. The call is probably a bit loose.

Any particular reason you didn't raise the turn with a caller trapped between you and MP1... especially if he's close to all-in? Did he have $0.23 or something?

[btspider]

meep, double-check the board.

raise preflop if the button and/or blinds are tight. raise the flop if the bettor is somewhat passive and you'll likely get a free card. a lot of turn cards will kill your draws, so i think the call can be reasonable. you hit a great turn card, raise it up and don't fear the nuts+redraws.

scary river. easy bet if checked too, but when bet into and having no overlay i might call here. this decision would be easier if you showed strength with the 4 straight on the turn.

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
meep, double-check the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Aha!

Thanks. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

-d

[Greg J]

Am I crazy for thinking you should raise this flop?

[Rico Suave]

Greg J:

[ QUOTE ]
Am I crazy for thinking you should raise this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you are not crazy. It is probably pretty close. Overcards and a gutshot....forcing sb out.....getting the free card if you want it.

However some mitigating factors are the 2-tone flop and the smallish pot. I still think that raise has merit, especially if your opponents are rather passive and the free card is quite likely.

--Rico

[Entity]

No turn raise because MP1 is an odd player. If I kept calling, I thought I could get him to bet the river again. If I raised, I had the feeling he might fold. I have NO clue what hand he was playing.

KJo is rarely a raise for me preflop. I've gone from raising it, to never playing it, to occasionally playing it in LP -- I'm assuming I raise in the CO mainly to buy the button and possibly to get a free look at a turn? Or is it just because KJo is good enough that it's far better than the average limper's hand?

Rob

[detruncate]

I look at it this way:

I have a reasonable pot equity edge against 2 average limpers. I want to try to get absolute position, and put pressure on the blinds to fold (or pay if they want to play). I might get a free look at the turn if I want it (like the 88 hand you brought up a while ago... at least I think that was you), but also have the option of playing it aggressively if I hit or think I can take down the pot via semi-bluff.

It's probably not that big a deal either way, but I prefer to raise when it looks like it'll be effective. And I know what you mean about waffling over KJ. I used to play it a lot, often for a raise. Then I started folding it in early position and limping with it late. I'm now trying to figure out what the benefits of each strategy were so I can amalgamate them into a better one.

[MagicRat]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm assuming I raise in the CO mainly to buy the button and possibly to get a free look at a turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have raised the flop and this would be my reasoning. Is that correct?? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Entity]

Raising the flop would have been a very good play. I didn't post this hand because I thought I played it well, though given my reads, I do like raising the river over raising the turn.

Rob

[flair1239]

For what it is worth. I rarely play KJo without a raise.

My default rules are these (deviate sometimes).

1. Fold from EP
2. I will almost always open raise.
3. I will raise after 2 limpers from anywhere.
4. I will raise from LP after 3 limpers, provided that only one is of the UTG variety.
5. The only time I limp is from the button with 3 or more limpers in front of me.

6. I never (never in the general sense) call a raise with it.

I believe that it plays better against fewer players. Another reason for raising is that at these limits people have a tendency to give you too much credit for your raises, if they notice you are playing tight. Not that they won't cold call you. But they will often muck to a flop bet.

You do have to be sensitive to pulling the plug though.

To sum up if you are going to play it, play it while you can limit the field.

[flexus]

without the preflop raise, do you still like a flop raise?

[flexus]

I like this, even though I almost never play KJo.