Deceptive Ways – Beginners Mistakes

[madcaller]

It appears that beginners make one of two common mistakes regarding deception. They either radically overvalue and in turn over use deceptive tactics or they underestimate the value of deception.

At what level do you think the value of deception increases dramatically?

[LokiV]

When your opponents have moved beyond considering only their hand to considering what you might also hold.

I like to consider this a three tier system, in which deception is only really valuable against a person on level three, and somewhat against a person on level 2.

To use deception effectively you need to be on the 'magic' third level of this tier, which is considering 1. your hand's strength, 2. your opponents hand strength and then also figuring out what your opponent thinks you have/what they think you think they have.

Confused yet? Yeah.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Loki,

We could add "levels" corresponding to the basic issues of poker psychology: "this is my hand," "this is the range of my opponent's hands," "my opponent is likely to put me on this range of hands," "my opponent thinks I'm putting him on this range of hands," etc....

Deception is marginally useful for the second issue, and becomes much more valuable with each successive issue. But against an opponent who considers only the first issue, deception is worthless and you should just play standard, ABC poker.

Cris

[LetsRock]

When you are playing agasinst "thinking" opponents, those who are capable of reacting "properly" to your deception. If they're too ignorant to recognize what you're trying to represent, your move is useless and counterproductive.

[wacki]

FYI: I spent alot of time out in Foxwoods, and it always seemed that most of my earnings came from people who were wearing sunglasses, trying to decieve way to hard, etc.

When starting out, just go by statistics. Pick the psychology up later.

[laja]

Deception is most useful when you play with the same people over and over, then it is important to vary your play. But when multi-tabling versus the online jokers I just play straight ABC near-flawless fundamental poker and don't try to get too tricky.

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
At what level do you think the value of deception increases dramatically?

[/ QUOTE ]

as soon as your opponents can read you.

If you're looking for a game level, I would say 10/20 and up

[PokrLikeItsProse]

[ QUOTE ]
We could add "levels" corresponding to the basic issues of poker psychology: "this is my hand," "this is the range of my opponent's hands," "my opponent is likely to put me on this range of hands," "my opponent thinks I'm putting him on this range of hands," etc....

Deception is marginally useful for the second issue, and becomes much more valuable with each successive issue. But against an opponent who considers only the first issue, deception is worthless and you should just play standard, ABC poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that the optimal strategy for poker involves playing exactly one level above your opponent. So, yes, deception is useless against a player who operates solely on the first level. But let's explain why theoretically. That player acts only on his hand. I have yet to see anyone come up with a way to deceive a player about what cards he is holding. It makes no point to think about what your hands your opponent is likely to put you on if he is, in fact, not putting you on any hand at all.

The moment a player considers things of which he is uncertain, that is when he becomes vulnerable to deceptive play. The more deeply a player thinks, the more hazy and uncertain his assumptions, and the more prone he is to being deceived. A player who considers the hands you are playing is open to deception because he cannot see your cards (unless, of course, he cheats). You are deceiving a second-level player when you establish a table image of what cards you will play, then trap someone by playing cards contrary to that image. I suggest that this sort of deception is the simplest and easy to accomplish. All you need to do is identify that the player acts on this level. Often, they will inform you themselves by being shocked when someone wins a pot with a hand that the book says to fold pre-flop. Mediocre players who whine about bad beats ("you called with that!") are often the most vulnerable to being trapped with an occasional loose pre-flop call if (and it is a big if) you can first establish respect.

[Blarg]

I think Mentor made a very appropriate comment. You must really work on your deception when you are playing people you regularly play.

An interesting side note: You can often deceive people who are not necessarily bright and and also who are very bright in the same way, regardless of how well they play their cards. That is, by acting on their prejudices.

Sad to say, many people pride themselves on summing others up quickly, judging a book by its cover. There are frankly just people who think women are dumb, especially if they're good looking; that people of a certain race are stupid, of others are aggressive, etc.; that fat people are dumb; skinny people are weak; that well-dressed people are smart and well-balanced; that sloppily dressed people are losers and probably chumps.

Almost none of us don't react that way to at least some group of persons, even if completely unconsciously.

If you know perfectly well that you look like a stereotype, it can often be utilized in your favor.

For instance, I'm a calm, quiet, skinny white guy with glasses who looks like he'd be easy to push around. A real Clark Kent tighty whitey. So I often make money off that image from people who like to think they're smart and know people before they know a thing. At the beginning of a session, if at all possible, I compound and reaffirm that image. When folding a totally crap hand, I groan that I was folding something actually much better. If a good hand gets beaten, I make sure to flash it while yammering about my bad beat. Usually almost none of this is necessary before people start either folding when I have nothing or bluffing into me to take advantage of the obvious "weak-tightness" of skinny white guys with glasses. My raises or even being in the pot at all gets way more respect than it deserves and I wind up stealing tons of pots with garbage. Even when I get caught and people see I was on a steal, I've already done enough reinforcing of a stereotype that it often doesn't matter; they'll think the crap I got caught with was an abberation(sp?) rather than the norm. It's hard to get a stereotype out of the mind, especially once you've seen it reinforced "with your own eyes." People are dying to see their stereotypes reaffirmed because it reaffirms the coherence of their internal worlds and makes them feel like smartpants.

If I were not what I am, I would try to make money off that too, and probably succeed. Stereotypes are stupid and offensive, and there's a certain joy in turning peoples' prejudices against them.

[Noo Yawk]

The biggest mistake beginners make is overvaluing their own knowledge of the game. It also happens to be the biggest mistake intermediate players make. Once you realize that you don't know nearly as much about poker as you once thought, you'll be on your way.

Sophisticated thinking is just as practical at lower levels. I play 20-40 to 30-60 on a regular basis. When the 10-20 is juicy I don't hesitate to jump in. At one level I'm thinking about value betting and protecting monster pots. At another I'm thinking about checking the turn to induce one more stinking bet out of my tight ass opponent when I have a monster hand. Those of you that want to beat bigger games and more "sophisticated" opponents need to know how to beat the easiest levels first.

[CrisBrown]

Hi PLIP,

[ QUOTE ]
I think that the optimal strategy for poker involves playing exactly one level above your opponent. So, yes, deception is useless against a player who operates solely on the first level. But let's explain why theoretically. That player acts only on his hand. I have yet to see anyone come up with a way to deceive a player about what cards he is holding. It makes no point to think about what your hands your opponent is likely to put you on if he is, in fact, not putting you on any hand at all.

The moment a player considers things of which he is uncertain, that is when he becomes vulnerable to deceptive play. The more deeply a player thinks, the more hazy and uncertain his assumptions, and the more prone he is to being deceived. A player who considers the hands you are playing is open to deception because he cannot see your cards (unless, of course, he cheats). You are deceiving a second-level player when you establish a table image of what cards you will play, then trap someone by playing cards contrary to that image.

[/ QUOTE ]

EXCELLENT post.

If your opponent thinks at level three (what range of hands does my opponent put me on), then your deception must come at level four (what range of hands does my opponent think I'm putting him on), that is, playing as if he's on a hand other than those you suspect he's playing. And so on.

Cris

[Lawrence Ng]

How do I know that you guys are not deceiving me with your posts? I mean if poker is a game of deception, then surely your posts deceive the deceivers. Now I sound like George Bush. Bah.