BAD Aces in PL Omaha

1-2 PL Omaha. This one was quite odd- and I butchered it at every stage! First of all, I limp UTG with AA93. ALL unsuited. Not a great hand to say the least, but at least tied for first so far, and the game is relatively short-handed (5)and not too agressive pre-flop.


Next player in raises to 9 and is called by 2 players. I decide I need to try and win this pot now while I have presumably the "best" (highest at least) hand. I re-raise to 45. I have the table covered, original raiser has about 185. To my dismay, everyone calls. The flop comes down a safe-looking 10-6-3 with two diamonds, butI am first to act. I freeze up. I see my lone ace of diamonds and figure at least no one with a nut flush draw will call if I bet, but that 10 really scares me with 3 opponents. Someone might call all-in with anything and back into any number of hands that crush me. I make the weakest play ever and check, but the fact that I raised so much pre-flop with such a crappy hand put me in this predicament. Everyone checks around. The turn is a Q. Now I know I am dead. After I check, the original raiser bets the rest of his chips, about 125 into the pot, and is then called by both of the other players. One has about 130 left over, the other is all-in for 75 or so. Anyway the pot is laying me 4-1, but I am beat, and maybe by more than one player. I fold. I lose 45 dollars. The player that went all-in first won with QQ when the board paired the 6. Next player had KKJ8 with an open-ended str8 and the 2nd nut flush draw.


My dilemma is this. I know my hand had virtually no value besides the aces, but with the naked Ad and a flop of 10-6-3 with 2 diamonds on the board, should I have bet the pot (180) and hoped none of my 3 opponents had my aces beat? The fact is, I have been running bad in Omaha generally, and I thought with three opponents for a total of 12 cards, minus at least KK , which I assumed were out there, there were still 10 cards left that could be 10-10 or 66. I did not see one of the player's hands, but I am now 99% sure my aces were good on the flop. Anyway, was I paranoid on this flop? Should I have bet the 180 immediately? The board was relatively good for my hand, but the 3 opponents really threw me off. This game had been very tight, and I had hoped to just take down the pot pre-flop or get it heads up. When that backfired I pretty much resigned myself to thinking almost any flop would beat me.

Shaun, I think you have to bet the flop here. You are pot committed. You weren't entirely clear but it sounds like you either have only a potsize bet left in front of you or nobody else has more than that.


At this point, push it in.


Not only that, but you should feel pretty safe actually. You made a big raise preflop, so what did they call you with? (I'm assuming this is high only). Most likely coordinated big cards or even a highly coordinated run of small cards. someone could have a hand like 789T suited or something, in which case you are SLIGHTLY ahead and would like to bet anyway, making them pay to draw against you.


You're only real fear is TT in somebody's hand. If someone flopped a set so be it. Once you check, you give control of the hand to somebody else, which is not good being out of position and all. And you WANT everyone to fold even if you're still in the lead.


You weren't planning to fold the hand, as evidenced by the fact that you called the turn bet. If you weren't planning on folding it, why didn't you bet after hitting one of the best flops you can get for unimproved aces?


natedogg

Actually, I only put money in pre-flop. It was checked around on the flop, and when the turn came a Q, I knew I was sunk. If they didn't have 10-10, they had to have QQ. On the turn I checked again, and when all three players commited besides myself, I knew for sure I was done. So I got out cheap, but could have won had I bet on the flop. You are right though Nate, I needed to bet this flop and take down the pot, especially with the ace of diamonds in my hand. Onc eI checked the flop, I pretty much resigned myself to only bet if an Ace came on the turn. Sad but true, I played this hand like a man scarred from too many beatings in PL Omaha- but I am learning.

oops, for some reason when responding I had thought you called the turn bet. At least you stuck to your conviction by giving up and staying that way.


I'm a fairly beginner pot limit omaha player myself. One thing I've learned by playing the online PLO games is that most players are unwilling to make a big bluff (pretty much the same as with all groups of non-expert big bet players). Unless it's NowHeresGod (and a couple others), you can fold to a big bet.


Back to the AA hand, you can routinely check-fold AA from out of position in a game where the stacks are very deep. But in your situation, it was the stack sizes that dictated a pot size bet. Stack size play is incredibly imporatant (and I know you know this), and sometimes dictates your move almost regardless of the hole cards or flop.


natedogg

> Next player in raises to 9 and

> is called by 2 players. I decide I need

> to try and win this pot now while I have presumably the "best" (highest at least) hand.

> I re-raise to 45. I have the table covered,

> original raiser has about 185. To my dismay, everyone calls.


it' good thinking - BUT you MUST give credit

to some hand to all the other 3 players (as you say

it's tight) so that they call should _not_ surprise you (since the raise at this point is

not big enough to drive them out of the pot).


> I see my lone ace of diamonds and figure at

> least no one with a nut flush draw will call

> if I bet, but that 10 really scares me with 3 opponents.


fair enough. but the lone Ace play is a dangerous

one - I have been picked up a few times with

people calling with K or Q flushes.

the 6-10 combo should scare you as well -

a set of 10's is likely and so is 7-8-9-J or other wraps.


There are only two ways to play the hand with

3 people to act on this flop. Either come out

strong betting (representing the flush draw -

the other players probably already have you

figured for the AA) or check/fold (never

check/call). But you will be out of position

as well: in PLO position is important (in

Limit Omaha _much_ less so).


Problem is if the third diamond comes and you

get called by the player holding the flush you

will go broke on the lone Aces. I have made the

lone A play a few times and won big pots and

I have also lost big getting called by flushes

as low a 7 or 8 high.


If you _know_ the other players

will fold then raise - if not just think of it

as another missed flop. If they are close to

all-in they will generally not fold their K or

Q flushes if they have re-draws ...


Lone aces - I quote "Omaha Holdem Poker":

"What you sow is what you reap is an excellent adage when applied to Omaha".


You probably had the best hand on the flop - but

with two cards to come you do not have many

outs.


Personally I would have just called the $9

preflop bet (the rest of your hand is pure rubbish) to take a cheap flop to see if I could

spike an A.


The Hold'Em thinking of isolation does not really

translate that well into Omaha: if people have a hand they have called one raise with they will often call the second bet as well: even in PLO if they have stack. They have a good co-ordinated hand, they know you have AA making the re-raise and they know they can make

you go broke if they flop good.


To sum up:

- you need to work on your hand selection big time (before making those re-raises). running bad in Omaha very often has to do with hand selection (playing 3 card hands, playing lone pictures for big raises, playing 2 low pairs and so on).

- you could have bet the flop or just check/folded: either play is OK the way I see it

- you did not get broke on your aces: good discipline


OmaHal