From the 2+2 table

[elindauer]

A lot of discussion on this one. Here's the action:

Tough table. All 2+2ers, playing at about 190 hands / hr. Lots of pots are 3-bet preflop. Very few multi-way confrontations.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: elindauer is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="CC3333">elindauer raises</font>, <font color="666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">CO <font color="purple">(Dougiefresh1)</font> 3-bets</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB caps</font>, BB <font color="purple">(Barry_H)</font> calls, elindauer calls, CO <font color="purple">(Dougiefresh1)</font> calls.

Flop: (16 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Barry_H raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">elindauer 3-bets</font>, Dougiefresh1 folds, SB calls, <font color="CC3333">Barry_H caps</font>, elindauer calls, SB calls.

Turn: (14 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Barry_H bets</font>, elindauer calls, SB calls.

River: (17 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Barry_H bets</font>, elindauer calls, SB folds.

Final Pot: 19 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 19 BB, between Barry_H and elindauer.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by elindauer (19 BB).</font>

Results:
Barry_H has Ks Kd (two pair, kings and sevens).
elindauer has Qd Kc (straight, king high).
Outcome: elindauer wins 19 BB.

Eh well. The poker gods are just I guess, I lose with aces four hands later.

[samdash]

In the game you describe I would fold this preflop. Having raised I think you should fold when its 2 cold back to you. On the flop you should fold when its 2 bets to you, but you opted to 3 bet, volunteering yourself to a 4 way cap. Turn and River played perfectly.

[Stork]

I fold preflop to the SB cap. Then I'd fold to the flop bet. Since you didn't though, I call down on the turn and river as you did.

[elindauer]

Fold KQ getting 7:1 immediately? I don't think this is a good plan. Hold on, just raised KQ UTG... they all fold.

Good luck.
Eric

[Michael Davis]

These aren't jokers who disrespect UTG raises. You've got to fold when it is capped back to you.

-Michael

[mike l.]

that's a pretty bad flat call on the river. the best players are value betting their overpairs there, and the equally great players are value raising the value betters there to make them pay for playing so excellently. see?

as for the rest of the hand it's fine. oh wait i missed preflop. preflop is a disaster. you must fold there for two cold back to you and it's not close in the slightest dont delude yourself into thinking otherwise. it's just so so bad it's not funny.

[elindauer]

That's fair. By the river, I had Barry pegged for AA or JJ, and with another player, who presumably had a similar read, in there calling, I felt that JJ was a little too likely to offer 2:1, especially when I might make the same raising and calling.

Heads up I raise.

Thanks.
Eric

[mike l.]

"Fold KQ getting 7:1 immediately? I don't think this is a good plan. Hold on, just raised KQ UTG... they all fold."

oh no no no no NO! do you hear me? NO!

there.

now raising utg preflop w/ this i think may be good in this game because you have just too much of a chance of winning the blinds or getting nice hands like AJ to fold or having 88 fold or 3 bet you both of which you dont mind. so the initial raise is okay, although a fold is fine as well.

but then when some toughie 3 bets and sb says "gee i like my hand so much against these two strong players and their strong raises (one of them even utg!) that even in worst position im compelled to put a cap on this thing", well gee that aint 77 man. and it aint K freaking Q. and bb now calls 3 cold?? you's in big trouble senor. it's got you all messed up and spanked. your hand is now almost always drawing very slim or almost dead potentially and you havent even seen a flop!

this is a no brainer: fold preflop for two more back to you.

[elindauer]

Hi mike,

I see what you are saying about the SB. It's interesting to note that the SB folded though, so he probably didn't have an overpair, certainly not AA or JJ. I think you may be giving him just a little more credit than is right. Maybe.

One dynamic at this table up to that point was the fair number of garbage 3-bets. Not that they can't have a hand, just that I didn't give full credit to the 3-bet and I suspect other players felt the same and would come in slightly light.

Anyways, suspect call preflop. I only got about a second to think about it at the table, and felt that I'd make up the difference if I hit the flop well, and have no trouble folding if I missed. Right or wrong, it worked out this time! /images/graemlins/smile.gif


Good luck.
Eric

[Barry]

Enough has been said about your PF call and I suppose your flop 3-bet.

On the river you should put me on an overpair only and raised. I would have folded JJ PF there. I don't remember who the SB was, but if he had JJ, he probably would have raised the turn, but I don't think he caps it with JJ PF either.

[gonores]

[ QUOTE ]
One dynamic at this table up to that point was the fair number of garbage 3-bets. Not that they can't have a hand, just that I didn't give full credit to the 3-bet and I suspect other players felt the same and would come in slightly light.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is somewhat true, but you should've realized by then that we (seats 5-8) were all 3-betting each others' raises. All of us paid due respect when you tighties over in seats 1-4 woke up. Especially raising UTG, we're not coming back at you without at least AQs or 99. Schneids and bicyclekick did a great job of cultivating image this way...and I think I did well myself.

But it sure looks like Dougiefresh made quite the astute fold with QQ on this flop /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

[SA125]

mikel. has already killed you on PF. Others have questioned the flop 3 bet.

I respect your opinion and play but I was glad to see you backtracked on your call PF here. This was wayward aggression blessed by pure luck. Check that. Make that variance. For a minute, I forgot that there was no luck in poker.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have folded JJ PF there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh. See, this would have been useful information to have.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't remember who the SB was, but if he had JJ, he probably would have raised the turn, but I don't think he caps it with JJ PF either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course. I knew I had the SB beat, wasn't sure about you. That's why I went for the overcall. Naturally, If I'd known you fold JJ preflop, that would change things.

Good luck.
Eric

[GuyOnTilt]

Fold KQ getting 7:1 immediately? I don't think this is a good plan.

...

GoT

[Barry]

I would think that most of us would fold JJ in that spot, if it was capped before it got to us. Even at this table.

[elindauer]

So... do you support this call, or think it's bad? I assume you think it's clear one way or the other, but I can't tell which.

Thanks.
Eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
I would think that most of us would fold JJ in that spot, if it was capped before it got to us. Even at this table.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I would. Getting over 4:1, you might be able to play no-set-no-bet and turn a profit. However, I concede that against players that are capable of getting away from reasonably big hands (see the QQ fold) it may be quite close and folding may be best.

Good luck.
Eric

[Stork]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold KQ getting 7:1 immediately? I don't think this is a good plan.
Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

Your most likely dominated.

[GuyOnTilt]

So... do you support this call, or think it's bad? I assume you think it's clear one way or the other, but I can't tell which.

I really don't see how anybody could make even a semi-decent argument for calling the 4-bet. This should be as automatic of a fold as they come UTG. Turbo-muck.

GoT

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
So... do you support this call, or think it's bad? I assume you think it's clear one way or the other, but I can't tell which.

I really don't see how anybody could make even a semi-decent argument for calling the 4-bet. This should be as automatic of a fold as they come UTG. Turbo-muck.

GoT

[/ QUOTE ]

Ummm... I'm getting 7:1 now and see big implied odds if I flop a big hand. That's a semi-decent argument.

It may be a bad call, but it's not the chip spewing ridiculousness I think it's being made out to be in this thread.

Good luck.
Eric

[Barry]

It was hard for you to flop a big hand with both KK and QQ out there /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Stork]

3 guys ahead of you are in for the maximum. You really think there is no AK, AQ, AA, KK, or QQ in any one of their hands?

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
3 guys ahead of you are in for the maximum. You really think there is no AK, AQ, AA, KK, or QQ in any one of their hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have to be ahead to justify calling. I need to win very rarely in fact. Now, maybe I need to to win rarely, but I'll win even MORE rarely. That's possible. But give me a break, it can't be that far off.

I'm obviously in the minority here, so I'm probably wrong. Good thing I have to face this situation about once a year.


my 2 cents.
Eric

[Michael Davis]

You're going to have to pay a bunch of bets postflop to draw if you flop one. A pair may be extremely expensive, and you will never be able to bet and raise with confidence with a pair. If you were playing showdown, it might be a call.

-Michael

[Barry]

BTW, I think Nate was the SB in that hand. Did you have AKh there Nate?

[Michael Davis]

That's what he said he had at the table.

-Michael

[astroglide]

i would much rather limp with JTo utg in that game than play KQo for 4 bets.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I think Nate was the SB in that hand. Did you have AKh there Nate?

[/ QUOTE ]

I had exactly AK of hearts.

-N

[Gabe]

mike is so so right, it's not funny.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
i would much rather limp with JTo utg in that game than play KQo for 4 bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sadly, I didn't have the choice. It was either play KQ for 2 bets, or fold. My software doesn't have a "redeal-the-hand-and-limp-with-JT" button.

Thanks.
Eric

[samdash]

Apparently you haven't downloaded the patch.

[elindauer]

let's talk pot equity for a minute. Getting 7:1, I need to have about a 12.5% win rate to justify calling, right? In the actual hand, from 2 dimes:

Qc Kd 0.063
Ah Kh 0.324
Qs Qd 0.091
Ks Kc 0.521

I have about half of what I need. So I'm giving up 1 SB by calling. Can I make that up if I flop well? Who knows. Maybe not.

In the split second I had to think about it, it seemed reasonable, since there will certainly be plenty of action after the flop. I also didn't know at the time that the hands against me were horrible for my hand.

Now that I think about it more, the arguments that I'll probably end up losing even more when I catch a small piece of the flop are compelling. So, the preflop call of the cap is probably wrong to the tune of about a half a SB.

But how much do I make when Barry goes on tilt after I showdown KQ for the winner? Hard to quantify, but nothing seems like a good ballpark figure. /images/graemlins/smile.gif


Good luck.
Eric

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
let's talk pot equity for a minute. Getting 7:1, I need to have about a 12.5% win rate to justify calling, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it were an all in situation sure but this is pretty much the definition of a reverse implied odds scenario.

[ QUOTE ]

In the actual hand, from 2 dimes:

Qc Kd 0.063
Ah Kh 0.324
Qs Qd 0.091
Ks Kc 0.521


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you should be using the hands you were up against here as the example of the correctness of the call. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif The only ways you could win were by making a straight or a 1-card flush in diamonds.

[GuyOnTilt]

let's talk pot equity for a minute. Getting 7:1, I need to have about a 12.5% win rate to justify calling, right?

You've got to be joking. This is ridiculous that this is getting discussed in this forum. I know I'm being a rude ass in this thread, but it's kind of hard not to be. I know 2/4 players who know that pot equity has virutally no bearing on this preflop situation whatsoever. Your reverse implied odds are absolutely huge here, and you're going to be paying up the nose for any sort of strong draw you may flop. Your pot odds mean shit. Your pot equity means shit. Your call reeks of sh[b[/b]it. Period. There is absolutely no argument. If you're playing midstakes hold'em, you really need to step down, and I'm saying that in all seriousness.

GoT

[GuyOnTilt]

Ummm... I'm getting 7:1 now and see big implied odds if I flop a big hand. That's a semi-decent argument.

No. It's really not. Like, at all.

It may be a bad call, but it's not the chip spewing ridiculousness I think it's being made out to be in this thread.

This is most definitely a chip spewing call. You know how Ed Miller tells players that the worst that you're losing on preflop calls is how much you put in, but really not even that much since you'll win some of the time? Well, he's wrong, and this preflop call is a perfect example. Your call here most definitely cost you over 2 small bets.

GoT

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold KQ getting 7:1 immediately? I don't think this is a good plan.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am completely flabbergasted. That anybody on this forum would even think of calling two more back to you w/ KQ is utterly shocking. Not at that table, against those opponents, with that piece of shit hand.

I'm convinced that calling the cap costs you somewhere between 2 and 4 SBs. God awful call.

[GuyOnTilt]

Sadly, I didn't have the choice. It was either play KQ for 2 bets, or fold. My software doesn't have a "redeal-the-hand-and-limp-with-JT" button.

Yeah, okay. He was making a point emphasizing how attrociously bad your preflop call was. Limping with JTo UTG at that table (or any) is obviously -EV. Your call, in astroglide's opinion (and mine), was even worse than that. So quit your sarcastic haughty crap.

GoT

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]

Anyways, suspect call preflop. I only got about a second to think about it at the table, and felt that I'd make up the difference if I hit the flop well, and have no trouble folding if I missed. Right or wrong, it worked out this time! /images/graemlins/smile.gif


Good luck.
Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

This is so awful thinking. You are pretty much set to only ever beating the 15/30 at best. What happens the HUGE majority of the time when you hit Q or Ks and run into AA KK?

The preflop fold when it comes back to you is SO simple yet you just aren't believing us.

[1800GAMBLER]

[ QUOTE ]
You know how Ed Miller tells players that the worst that you're losing on preflop calls is how much you put in, but really not even that much since you'll win some of the time? Well, he's wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read this but i did see him give an example of this on another forum. The example of it he gave used 22 and he made it same like the statement was intended for hands like 22 - 66, in which case it would be very close to correct. If he said it regarding every possible hand that's pretty bad and not something i'd expect from Ed.

[Fnord]

Would you call the cap if it was KQ suited?

edit: The river is an easy raise too. If you're going to draw to a gutshot, at least have the decency to raise when you hit.

[GuyOnTilt]

The example of it he gave used 22 and he made it same like the statement was intended for hands like 22 - 66, in which case it would be very close to correct. If he said it regarding every possible hand that's pretty bad and not something i'd expect from Ed.

I don't know what he said verbatim, so I won't contend either way. I do remember one instance where he made this statement concerning limping in LP with a hand that the highest card was a Jack. The line of thinking does apply to certain situations, but I think it's a dumb point to make anyway, since your goal should be to not make any -EV plays, not ones that are only slightly -EV. But I don't remember him making any caveats for it, and the rule certainly does not hold true in many, many preflop situations.

GoT

[1800GAMBLER]

I'd also like to add something about postflop since the frst two replies i read are way off.

Anyone even thinking of folding the flop is insane. Fold for 1 or 2 bets!? no way! are you missing his 4 outs? Given it got capped and had hero played this hand sanely it wouldn't have been much of a mistake and it's not getting capped much.

Turn is so effing obvious that it's the only street elindauer managed to play right.

Going for the overcall on the river sucks. Barry_H has JJ 0% of the time and who says SB is calling?

Your mistakes in this hand are huge.

[Barry]

If it was the third hand in a row that you bad beat me playing 40/80, then you might have had some tilt equity going for you /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3 guys ahead of you are in for the maximum. You really think there is no AK, AQ, AA, KK, or QQ in any one of their hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have to be ahead to justify calling. I need to win very rarely in fact. Now, maybe I need to to win rarely, but I'll win even MORE rarely. That's possible. But give me a break, it can't be that far off.

I'm obviously in the minority here, so I'm probably wrong. Good thing I have to face this situation about once a year.


my 2 cents.
Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I think you are wrong, but big deal. You are also one of the few guys who almost always play his best game, at least from what I've seen. It's easy to play rock solid in a low limit game with a bunch of other 2+2ers watching, but I see you do it all the time. People are getting too carried away in this thread. It was a 5-10 game, we were having fun, it was the first multiway pot in about an hour. What's all the fuss about?

[TxSteve]

I think people are getting "carried away" because he is so adamantly defending his play.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
between 2 and 4 SBs. God awful call

[/ QUOTE ]


Whew. Such anger. I'm getting pretty tired of this debate, especially since it seems I'm so obviously wrong. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

However, since GoT also said this, I'd like to point out that it can't be worse than a 2 SB loss. I believe Ed Miller's statement is correct on this. Even the most basic strategy of simply folding my hand every time after the flop would limit my loss to 2 SB, and I can improve on that by only continuing if I flop a straight.

If I lose more than 2SB playing this hand, it can only be said that I lost that money after the flop. If that is the case, it's really a post-flop mistake, an error which compounds the bad preflop call, not caused by the preflop call.

Granted, someone who is prone to make the first mistake is probably prone to make bad calls after the flop. But that's really a different issue.


my 2 cents.
Eric

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
I think people are getting "carried away" because he is so adamantly defending his play.

[/ QUOTE ]

"I'm obviously in the minority here, so I'm probably wrong. Good thing I have to face this situation about once a year."

I wouldnt call that adamantly defending his play

[astroglide]

Sadly, I didn't have the choice. It was either play KQ for 2 bets, or fold.

yes, and the blatantly obvious play was to fold. my observation about preferring JTo utg was the illustrate how easy the fold is. i do not consider playing JTo utg, and i REALLY wouldn't consider it in that game. folding KQo after it's 2 bets back would be an easier fold than that. at least i have some kind of shot with JTo.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're playing midstakes hold'em, you really need to step down, and I'm saying that in all seriousness.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh man. Come on. I'm sure you either think too highly of the party 15, or too lowly of me.

Good luck.
Eric

[elindauer]

[quotemy observation about preferring JTo utg was the illustrate how easy the fold is.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually think you could make money limping with JT occassionally in that game. You raise UTG, that's standard. Limp in? Uh oh. Aces. I limped once with 22 and ATs folded in MP. Too bad, I flopped a set.


Good luck.
Eric-the-evil

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn is so effing obvious that it's the only street elindauer managed to play right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I probably misclicked.

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
You are also one of the few guys who almost always play his best game, at least from what I've seen. It's easy to play rock solid in a low limit game with a bunch of other 2+2ers watching, but I see you do it all the time. People are getting too carried away in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]


*blush*

Thanks for the kind words.
Eric

[The Dude]

Even the most basic strategy of simply folding my hand every time after the flop would limit my loss to 2 SB, and I can improve on that by only continuing if I flop a straight.
I guarantee anybody who actually believes it is right to call the cap w/ KQo is going to play it -EV postflop. When the flop comes Q52r are you folding when it comes one bet to you? You should, but I'm sure you wouldn't have folded.

[Turning Stone Pro]

Do I even have standing to comment on a hand from a game I suggested and so negligently (and regrettably) missed? probably not, but here goes . . .

As Mike indicated, I like the pre-flop raise with KQo in this game. why? i don't know . . i hate just calling with it, and i could never bring myself to hit the PP "fold" box preflop with it. in a tight game, i like raising.

when it's two more back to me preflop, i have to call. Yeah, I agree im way behind 80% of the time. BUT, there is the chance a monster could be flopped. AND, if I should hit it, it could change my entire session. It could tilt some players. There are enough positive things that can happen so that it warrants 2 more SBs with about 14 SBs already in the pot.

Obviously, with this type of table make-up the play is more questionable. BUT, in a typical PP situation I dont think i would ever fold in this pre-flop situation.

Of couse, I am assuming the hero plays expert-level post-flop, which I believe can be safely assumed based on my experience playing and posting with elendauer.

My two cents. . . .

[Senor Choppy]

If you're going to raise and call a cap with KQ in this spot, you should be blindly calling with any 2 once it's 2 bets back to you. This isn't meant as hyperbole, but KQo is probably the worse preflop hand, out of all possible combinations, that you could hold given the action.

Having said that, are you regularly auto-calling caps after you open-raise?

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
I guarantee anybody who actually believes it is right to call the cap w/ KQo is going to play it -EV postflop. When the flop comes Q52r are you folding when it comes one bet to you? You should, but I'm sure you wouldn't have folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, I would not fold that flop for 1 bet. In fact, I'd probably raise. I don't think this is a mistake at 17:1, but even if it is, it's irrelevent. It should be obvious that the upper limit on the -EVness of the preflop call is 2SB. Claiming more than this is at best bad math and at worst unecessary bashing.


my 2 cents.
Eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to raise and call a cap with KQ in this spot, you should be blindly calling with any 2 once it's 2 bets back to you. This isn't meant as hyperbole, but KQo is probably the worse preflop hand, out of all possible combinations, that you could hold given the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're exaggerating for effect, but I see your point. KJ, KT, K9 are all worse than KQ here, to name a few. I agree that 87 would be a better hand to hold.

[ QUOTE ]
Having said that, are you regularly auto-calling caps after you open-raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't regularly have the option. This is a rare event in my games. The answer to your question though, is that I would expect to call a cap in most situations with a hand I would open raise UTG.


Good luck.
Eric

[Luke]

This is so awful thinking. You are pretty much set to only ever beating the 15/30 at best.

C'mon Gambler. Alright, the fold is fairly obvious and elindauer may not have handled himself perfectly throughout this thread, but because his thinking was off on this hand does not mean he can never beat anything higher than 15/30.

Surely there was a time in your poker career where you might have considered this situation or a similar one as *gasp*, close, only to realize later on that you were way off.

That's why most people read/post here - to improve/learn and move up.

Luke

[1800GAMBLER]

I wasn't referring the hand when i said that i was referring to this:

[ QUOTE ]
Right or wrong, it worked out this time!

[/ QUOTE ]

and a lot of other thought process gone in this hand.

[ QUOTE ]
and see big implied odds if I flop a big hand

[/ QUOTE ]

... mostly that. Understanding if you have postive or negative implied odds here is a basic poker concept, if that's' misused there's a lot of other things being misused.

I probably would have been more polite had elindauer handled the reponses better showing he was trying to learn other than stuff like:

[ QUOTE ]
Sadly, I didn't have the choice. It was either play KQ for 2 bets, or fold. My software doesn't have a "redeal-the-hand-and-limp-with-JT" button.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
You're exaggerating for effect, but I see your point. KJ, KT, K9 are all worse than KQ here, to name a few.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really wasn't. Aside from better straight potential, I think all the hands you listed perform better than KQ in this spot. They certainly go way up in value relative to KQ, even if they don't exceed it.

[The Dude]

As I started to type another reply, I remembered something my dad used to say. If you argue with a dummy for too long, you look like the dummy. With that in mind, I'm done.

[samdash]

Hi Guy
Based on the hands you've posted recently I think you should move down as well, and I mean that in all seriousness.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i don't mean to beat on a dead horse as I'm new to this thread... a lot of our micro posters know to fold here once its capped back to you.

Your hand is in such utter disarray and confusion. You don't know what you want to flop other than specifically KKK, QQQ, or AJT. Hoping and praying for exactly 3 flops is a bad investment for 2 more bets regardless of the fact you already have 2 in and the "implied odds" you're getting.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

No. Just... no.

[sthief09]

OK, I'm not putting you down because I pretty much only post in the SS forum, but this does NOT belong in the MHS forum. calling preflop after it's capped is a pretty terrible mistake, and I think failing to raise with a straight on the river in an aggressive game, i.e. he's going to have AA/KK/QQ a LOT more than he has JJ/99, is almost as bad.

I also hate your flop action. it's been 3-bet and capped preflop and you 3-bet a bet and a raise on the flop? you have 7 outs at best, and more often you'll have 4 and occasionally be against a flush or boat redraw.

I think you're throwing away your money playing at 5/10 like this. I'm going to read the discussion now. I hope everyone isn't saying the opposite, because then I'll look like an idiot, but I'm pretty sure the best way to describe your play on this one is LAG.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't mean to beat on a dead horse

[/ QUOTE ]

Too late.

[PassiveCaller]

this is high stakes... ?

[sthief09]

you're completely clueless and your post that belongs in the Micro forum is cluttering up the MHS forum