waiting to raise

[chio]

sorry i am going on a posting spree. i guess i just thought i had an interesting session

what do you think of these delayed raises?

HAND 1
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>


HAND 2
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, MP folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>


HAND 3
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 3 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Button folds, <font color="CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB caps</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>

[DrGutshot]

Hand 1 I raise the flop to get more info out of him, if 3bet I fold

Hand 2 I raise the turn...it looks like he will pay it off the whole way, you might as well charge him the most.

Hand 3 perfect

[fsuplayer]

Its usually best to raise the turn, just in case they are on a draw, you can charge them for it. if they have a hand, they will most likely pay off whether you raise the turn or river, so why not get paid by the draws as well.


fsuplayer

[naphand]

Yep, but it is also good to change this against some players who are aggro enough to keep betting into you with likely weaker hands.

I think to make this kiind of (mix-up) play you need a read on your opponent....we have not been given any so it is impossible to judge whether this line is preferable to standard.

[kiddo]

Hand 1:

He 3bet preflop out of position so there is a good chance he is sitting with nice cards. Why not raise flop and if he 3bet you have to think and if he checkraises turn you have to fold? It will be a very expensive hand if you raise turn with 2nd best hand. As other poster said, you have to have a good read on the player to do this raise.

hand 2:
Dont like it. There are a lot of draws on table, raise turn fearing a check-fold on river.

hand 3:
yep, good.

[ALL1N]

Hand 1 : this is the perfect line against a lot of opponents
Hand 2 : raise the turn
Hand 3 : good

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 : this is the perfect line against a lot of opponents

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? What are "a lot of opponents" 3betting with out of position?

[stripsqueez]

[ QUOTE ]
I think to make this kiind of (mix-up) play you need a read on your opponent....we have not been given any so it is impossible to judge whether this line is preferable to standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont care what he plays like - i dont think i have ever taken the line taken in hand 2 - i cant believe that slowplaying 2 streets with a strong but not great hand is ever right

hey nap - i figured either you died or suffered some form of horrible illness to avoid posting for so long

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
Why? What are "a lot of opponents" 3betting with out of position?

[/ QUOTE ]

Chio openraised the button, so SB will be 3-betting many hands here which are still drawing very live. AQ and AJ to name 2. Unless you can't fold to the turn 3-bet, I can't imagine taking any other line here.

[kiddo]

ok, it was a buttonopenraise... i should read more careful... yes, SB will 3 bet with "a lot" and yes, nothing wrong raising turn. Would you bet river if he calls turn? If river is another overcard?

There is about 1/4 that another overcard will hit turn, would you still raise if it did and then bet river, or would you call it down, or raise turn and check behind on river if he calls turn?

[chio]

hand 1
i still like my line i think. only a small chance he'll fold a better hand, but he'll certainly fold many hands with outs to beat me and he'll call with many worse hands too. plus i can safely fold to a turn 3bet i think. and i can decide to check behind or bet the river depending on the card

i've been using this line more because i'm starting to hate the "raise the flop for info, fold if 3bet and/or fold the turn". it costs almost as much as this line, doesn't protect your hand, and i'll end up folding the best hand many times i think.

opponent folded to turn raise


hand 2
i think you guys are right on this one. not raising on the turn is bad. i want him to fold overcards like K or A or pay an extra bet with a draw. if i had AA this line might be ok.

along the "charging the draws" line, i think given how much strength he's shown, if he's pushing a draw he'll bluff bet the river anyway if he misses, so it'll be the same result. if the hand was multiway, raising the turn be indisputable. but raising the turn here is better against something like AK, which might fold (good), or check-call the river if i just call the turn, and i'll have missed a bet if he would have called down

opponent called river and turned over KT. MHIG. so lucky it worked out anyway

hand 3
you guys liked it, i like it. the cool thing is, i'm raising for value but also protected against something like AK, which probably won't 3bet the river, fearing 2 pair

opponent thought for a long time, and then called, showing K5o. haha.

thanks for the responses everyone

[naphand]

you cheeky whippersnapper... /images/graemlins/mad.gif

I was taking 2 weeks holiday in the quiet hills of Devon. I didn't think I would be missed... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

And while it was great to just walk and pick berries, I find I have lost some focus on my game... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you bet river if he calls turn? If river is another overcard?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would usually check behind on this river.

[ QUOTE ]

There is about 1/4 that another overcard will hit turn, would you still raise if it did and then bet river, or would you call it down, or raise turn and check behind on river if he calls turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
If a Q or J came, I'd play it the same. If an A came, I can see myself both calling and folding.

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
openraised the button, so SB will be 3-betting many hands here

[/ QUOTE ]
I know it's player depedent, but how many? Poster didn't provide any read on SB with regard to how vigourously SB defends, so what might be a range for a typical opponent? What range would 2+2 recommend 3-betting with? Is AA-66, AKs-A9s, KQs-KTs, QJs, AKo-ATo, KQo a reasonable estimate to put SB on? PokerStove reports 55% equity against that range of hands, so I wonder if a pre-flop cap to take control of the hand could be in order.

PS: What percentage of hands would you recommend SB just call with (or is this a raise-or-fold situation?)

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
I know it's player depedent, but how many? Poster didn't provide any read on SB with regard to how vigourously SB defends, so what might be a range for a typical opponent? What range would 2+2 recommend 3-betting with? What percentage of hands should SB just call with (i.e., is this a raise or fold situation?) Is AA-66, AKs-A9s, KQs-KTs, QJs, AKo-ATo, KQo a reasonable estimate to put SB on?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends if there was no read because the guy hadn't been getting out of line or no read because chio just sat down at the table. A "typical" opponent 3-bets less than the range you posted, but there are many LAG opponents who 3-bet much more, so it's difficult to specify exactly what you're up against.

And no, it's often not just raise-or-fold here. If you're defending with lots of non-paired, non-ace combinations, you should be calling some of the time too.

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStove reports 55% equity against that range of hands, so I wonder if a pre-flop cap to take control of the hand could be in order.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm happy to let my opponent have the initiative here where I know my hand is always going to "hit the flop" to a certain extent. A preflop cap would be fine though.