You have AK, don't you?

[DeeJ]

Here MP1 is loose (50% vp$ip) but UTG is rock-like tight passive. How did I do? Fold/raise the river? How about the pf cap?

For bonus marks, what did the others have?

Paradise Poker 5/10 Hold'em (7 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (17 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (11.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: (14.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 17.50 BB

[anatta]

Normally I'd cap preflop with JJ too, but here I think it might be a good idea to call and see what your rock tight passive does. If HE caps, then you can put him on AA or KK.

I think its possible UTG has the AK, a passive player might put you on AA for your cap and flop raise. Many players would have AQ here.

The loose player could have AK or just ace and just be fooling around with the board pairing. He could have turned trips. Its hard to tell from your description (loose) since some loose players like to see flops, but when they raise preflop (or three-bet a tight UTG), they can have premium holdings.

[mike l.]

the play is fold preflop.

[etizzle]

i hope you're kidding

[NUReedy]

Not that unreasonable to fold here. UTG is described as a tight, almost rocklike player, so you know he has something huge if he is raising here. This limits his hands to AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK, with the former three being the most likely. Then, MP, while described as loose (not sure what his read on UTG is) has to have a legitimate reraise hand. Either a) he doesn't have the same read on UTG, so the reraise hands would be those same 5 and maybe some a little worse (but still high cards), or b) he has the same read, and thus has a monster. Thus, there is a very high liklihood JJ is ahead, and even if it is it is 50/50 against ONE player, not two. You have no money invested, just fold.

[Jules22]

i wouldnt fold jj there knowing that utg could have overcards and mp1 could have theoretically anything. i would have raised the river and just called a 3 bet tho, its tough to put someone on ak. i think that utg may have had qq or maybe even aj, although id lean more to qq with the q of clubs putting in a crying call on the river. mp1 most likely has ak based on his turn check and river bet, but aj or even aq is not unreasonable. i like yer line, but i definitely raise the river and call if three bet there. nice hand for discussion /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[anatta]

QQ I guess is possible for UTG but that overcall on the river goes well beyond "crying call" don't you think? I agree AJ is possible, but it'd have to be suited and even then if he's that much of a passive rock he might not raise it UTG.

[anatta]

I agree, from the description of UTG, he probably has AA-QQ, AK, AQ. You do play goot! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[pistol78]

If MP1 is a huge lag his 3 bet really doesnt mean much. I would probably call though since UTG is tight, as he probably does have something really good, and a cap will not make him fold to isolate the mp1, I was suprised to see how many people thought UTG had AK. I mean he has to be really passive not to raise the river right? I mean since he is so tight what does he raise with:

AA: Does not have it becasue he would cap AT LEAST the river. If he does, then he should never play poker again.
KK: Same response as above
QQ: Possible, probably chased for a T missed but pot was to big to fold
JJ: Hmmmm, Oh yeah you got those.
TT: chased for a Q pot got so big he paid off the river? Unlikely.
ATo: If he is that tight I don't think he rasied this UTG and called 3 back to him.
KcQc: very likely
AJo/AJs: really tight players dont raise this UTG and call 3 back to them.

I dont know guys the 2 hands i have UTG on are QQ or KQs, As for the lag he can have any 2 cards, KQs maybe. SO tell us already what happened.

[illguitar]

Why not AQs or off? Even if he is weak tight he would want to limit the fiels with his AQ, right? I have him on that first, with a possible QQ second. No chance of AA-TT except QQ. He would have raised the river AT LEAST. I would bet that the MP1 had something like K-T or K-J. My final answer would be that you lost a great pot to Kings full of Jacks and beat the AQ for the side pot of pride. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[pistol78]

YOur toght forgot about AQ

[Jules22]

[QQ I guess is possible for UTG but that overcall on the river goes well beyond "crying call" don't you think? I agree AJ is possible, but it'd have to be suited and even then if he's that much of a passive rock he might not raise it UTG.]


how on earth can he overcall if he checks, the guy immediately next to him bets, the only other guy calls, and his only options are call fold or raise. if he just calls with ak hes a complete and total turd, and i dont think anyone is gonna sit there and fear AA. QQ or a aq or aj seem like the only possible options. mp1 is a mystery to me, but if hes a loose as u say you prolly wanna raise there. i think u may be a bit fuzzy on what the term overcall means. i think of an overcall as like being 2nd to act on the river with the nuts, when the first guy bets and theres like 4 people behind you, you call if they are loose to incite calls instead of raising and cutting off the action. looking back it seems very reasonable that utg has QQ, a very solid hand that even a rock will play, mp1 i think may very well have like kj and made an improbable draw out, or he could have aq and may think hes ahead. either way i still lean toward raising the river

[DeeJ]

He wasn't that rocky. I haven't got the exact stat here, but from memory he was at VP$IP ~15% out of around 100 hands, and a preflop raise of 4%. So I knew he was tight, and passive preflop, but he may just have been getting poor cards.

Anyway, small enough sample to not be sure he only raised with like AK/QQ-AA. And we're only 7 handed here, so he could fairly easily be starting as low as TT/99 or AJs/AQs/AQo/KQs I guessed even with a more accurate read.

I did consider folding, but since my loose colleague was in, I thought I was good enough to play the Jacks.

Results later.

[garyc8]

I would not cap pre-flop. (Is the loose player a maniac? Or does he just call loose? there's a big difference.) I would call. You know UTG is tight, so you'd like to know where he's at. Your cold call gives him a chance to cap. If he would only 4 bet, AA or KK, you know what kind of flop you want. ( and can fold the one you got).

As it played out it's hard to know whether you should fold on river. If MP1 is a maniac you can't fold on his account (the pot is too big). Would he bet KQ? UTG's overcall is scary but you have to decide first.
UTG could have K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q off. There's enuff $ in pot to take off turn for a T. He takes the river hoping for a /images/graemlins/club.gif, or a T. Since you don't raise river he calls with 3K. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif Either that or he has AK and is really timid. /images/graemlins/frown.gif
Did you win?

[garyc8]

I think if he had K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif, he bets the turn. I think it's K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q off. See below.

[Jules22]

utg is not overcalling. u cant close the action with an overcall, it literally does not make sense.

[DeeJ]

The corollary to this is if I cap, he will put me on a bigger hand too, maybe folding a KQ or AQ. Dunno. Loose player is not a total maniac, but does take hands too far. Also, if I had cold called and he capped I still can't fold JJ to AKJ flop because he is still able to have AK (more often than AA or KK) which I will usually take many $$ from, although set over set is also costly!

Totally unrelated, but the last time I had AK with an AKJ flop someone else had QT /images/graemlins/frown.gif and no river K

[garyc8]

Um, no. UTG is overcalling.
Overcall (vi): to call after a player before you has already called. (n) a call beyond the 1st call.

[garyc8]

Well, if MP is not a maniac that makes it harder to call on the end. How tight are his standards to 3 bet? Would he have 3 bet any hand that doesn't beat you? QQ maybe? With Q /images/graemlins/club.gif and a bluff on the end? If you can't believe this, or something similar, you're probably beat.

[DeeJ]

My read on him is that he's loose, not very good, but no maniac. Who knows what he was thinking /images/graemlins/smile.gif and I thought he could easily have any King, a better boat, a flush or even a straight. I was more worried about UTG but MP1 can only check or bet... "probably" beat doesn't mean I should fold though, because the pot is big and I may be able to see it for 1 bet (which I did).

[garyc8]

I agree. I would have to be near 100% sure I was beat to fold here. As for UTG, as I said before I think there's a good chance he has K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q off. I'm curious if I'm right on this. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[anatta]

[ QUOTE ]
how on earth can he overcall,

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you don't know what overcall means.

By calling UTG is putting the river better on what, a pair of Jacks and hero on TT? Like I said, its possible, but I think it goes beyond a crying call even in a big pot. Given the preflop and flop action, with two overcards on the flop, QQ is no good.

Like I said in my original post AQ is the most likely hand for an unknown player. AK is possible for a rock who fears hero has AA. AJ is possible, but most rocks fold (or maybe just call) UTG with AJ, perhaps AJs is strong enough for this guy to raise. With JJ and the flop, the ONLY AJs is AhJh. Thats one combo!

Note, if he can have AJ preflop, then hero folding JJ is wrong as mikel. advocated, so see he doesn't think its likely UTG can have AJ from the description (notice AJs raising usually means TT and even 99 raise UTG, more hands which JJ is ahead of.

[DeeJ]

UTG has A /images/graemlins/heart.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif taken rather too far.
MP1 has K /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif
Hero's hand is good. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Good call those who said K /images/graemlins/club.gif Qx...

[For a change I posted a winning hand......]

[Jules22]

i stand corrected with the overcall thing, but him just calling at the end is obviously not a cause for concern, if he had ak or aa or kk even hed obviously pop it for a raise. good hand for discussion /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[JasonP530]

Kevin brings up the really important point of the post: Is the loose player a loose raiser and/or reraiser too? Plenty of times i see VPIP at 50 and PFR at a reasonable 10, which means that between the rock and the reraiser, your hand could be in serious trouble. Cap is definately your worst option preflop. Then youll have less info to use after the flop(plus many flops are bad for you.

[DeeJ]

Loose guy has preflop raise of 13%, which doesn't tell me he beats JJ most of the time. Tight guy has pfr of 4.3% which I was more worried about. I hoped (correctly) that there was a reasonable chance he was playing AK/AQ rather than QQ or better.

[TaintedRogue]

I think the cap preflop (against these two players) gives you so much, not just for this hand, but for future play. I can remember when I was weak-tight, like UTG, and I was smart enough to realize if I capped (if you didn't) preflop, I would be lighting up a neon sign telling my opponents I had AA or KK. So, I wouldn't cap it.
I think you would be able to tell, on a flop like that, soon enough if he had AA or KK.
I believe the river does not warrant a raise, unless you really want to press home to the LAG, that if he continues to hammer, like he did, he is going to pay out the nose, even when you don't have a hand close to the nutz. It is only for that reason, that I a raise would be warranted.
I, however, would still not raise the river, as it may give the LAG the impression his bet cooled my jets and had it not been that I had a set, I might have let the hand go, giving him incentive to play aggressively in the future.
To sum it up, I think you played it perfect, there is just more than one way to play it perfect, depending upon what you want to achieve.

[astroglide]

pfr doesn't indicate their threebetting standards. i think it's only slightly on the high side. look at their asb, if it's well over 33% that's probably where it's happening.

[DeeJ]

I've only got 19 hands for this, attempted to steal blinds 2/19. Hard to tell either way.

This isn't a stat I use (apart from the obvious) - can you elaborate how a high asb would mean loose threebetting standards? (esp from early posn?). Forgive my ignorance /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[and if I have your attention, what do you think of the hand? /images/graemlins/wink.gif ]

[astroglide]

i'm saying high asb means the pfr number can't be read into that highly. 13% is NOT a terrifically high number so his threebets are probably NOT crap. the hand looks ok to me.