Pot Limit hand

$5-10 blinds; 8 players, a couple of decent players but mostly limit players taking an experimental shot at P/L. Most have between $800-$1500; the 2 decent players have over $3500 and I have the table covered with around $4k.


I'm in the BB with 10-9 of spades.


MP (decent player with P/L experince) open raises to $35; cutoff calls; button (the other decent player, also with P/L experience) calls; SB calls; and I call.


5 see the flop $175 pot


K Q J all hearts


SB checks; I check; MP ponders for a few seconds and checks; cutoff folds; button bets $100; SB calls; I think for a few seconds then muck; MP check raises the pot; button calls; SB folds.


Turn (3h) K Q J


check-check


River blank (X) 3 K Q J


check-check


MP shows A-10o (no heart); button mucks saying he flopped a set.


Should I have check-raised OTF? I'm thinking now that maybe I should have.


All comments welcome.


KC50

I think you played it right...the money is deep and do you really want to committ your money to this flop? You could be drawing dead or have a fragile lead where your opponents are drawing to many outs. Another heart usually kills you or causes you to play the hand in a way that lends itself to you being outplayed. Any 10 is a death card, a 9 and you are probably chopping. I like the call preflop bc you can flop a big hand and bust a stack....but this is not the flop you're after. Call in limit game, but easy fold in a pot limit game unless you're willing to back up a read with serious money...wrong hand to try it.


Jeff

Jeff,


I think you may have misread my hand on the flop. I did not flop a draw, I flopped a straight. My hand cannot improve.


At first I thought I had the best hand OTF but changed my mind after MP checked behind me. When I checked then MP checked and the button bet $100, I put him on AK with the ace of hearts at the worst. But most likely a set or possibly AA with a heart. If he or MP has a made flush or A-10 I am trapped out of position. When MP checked behind me I felt a trap coming from him. That's why I mucked.


I still can't help thinking the possibility my check-raising OTF might have been the better play.


KC50

looks to me that if you do not bet large enough there's no way he will release the A,10


but if you make big bet, he may just move in on you


thus only hope would be to move in yourself


not too sure I would want to take that risk here--he could have been slow playing the absolute nuts, or some smaller flush with which he would decide to call your bet


since we don't have much in the pot, lets muck

I didn't misread your hand (though drawing dead is a bad choice of words). You flopped the ass end of a str8 with draws galore and the possibility you are completely dead with no possibility of improvement. You are looking to lose the farm on this hand if you're beat and make little if you're ahead. Even if you are winning, half the deck either kills you or takes half the pot away from you (and that would be the good scenario). When faced with significant action here, I would cut my losses at $35 everytime.


Jeff

Yes - a check-raise would have helped define your position in this hand. It is possible that you could have bullied most of the players out and the MP nut straight would be on his heels for the rest of the hand - if he didnt lay down on the flop. You also may have got the MP player to lay down the hand when the heart hit the turn (this is easy to say in hindsight). You have everyone covered so the money is a factor. To pull off a good bluff (or semi-bluff) out of position requires a very good read of your opponents so that is up to you on that. I think your options were the fold that you did or the bold semi-bluff and following it through to the river- see if the players can stand the heat. Ace, Ten offsuit from MP. $35 raise. Is this a common play in this game? Weak kickers can lead to a death march in Pot-limit.

This opponent is a regular P/L player that has the reputation of having the goods when called and not knowing if he has the goods when you don't look him up. I have got a similar reputation. That's why when he checked behind me OTF, I smelled a rat.


He will open raise with these types of marginal (calling hands at best) only on occassion.


That's where I was when you talked about hindsight. It was the key to my wondering, now that I know what he had "what if"?


But with only in $35 invested IMO the choice was clear and correct.


KC50