Calling pre flop all-in with pocket pair

[AndrewB]

I am halfway through The Theory of Poker and I have the Fundamental Theorum of poker on my mind. According to the theorum, I should have called here but I ended up laying it down. An aggressive leaning friend of mine says that he may have called in this situation. What do you think?

NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Level:2 Blinds(15/30)

Total number of players : 10


SB (t1105)
BB (t1030)
UTG (t710)
UTG+1 (t915)
MP1 (t785)
MP2 (t775)
MP3 (t520)
CO-1 (t640)
CO (t760)
Button (t760)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG raises to t60, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO-1 folds, CO folds, Hero raises to t90, SB calls t75, BB raises to t1000 (All-In), UTG calls t650 (All-In), Hero folds, SB folds

Flop: (t1800) 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif, 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif, T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
Turn: (t1800) 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
River: (t1800) 8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Final Pot: t1800

Results in white below:
<font color="white">
BB has As Kh (high card ace)
UTG has Ah Jh (high card ace)
Outcome: BB wins (t1800)
</font>

[Shilly]

I think you have to lay that down here. You've been re-raised, and someone has already called that re-raise. At best you'll have a coinflip, at worst you'll be a huge dog. Lay this one down and find a better spot to get your money in.

[rjb03]

Easy fold here especially after the caller all in. SNG strategy differs slightly because your last chips are more important than any you might win with your small edge. You bust you're done. Not that this changes the truth of the theorem. Anyways, even if you could see their cards I would still fold here this early in the tournament.

[Grivan]

Easy fold. It is very likely that one of the two all ins will have a higher pocket pair then you, and even if they don't you aren't in to great of a position if they have 4 different overcards.

On a side note, the minraise with 77 after a raise is horrible. If you are going to raise here you need to either make it bigger (so it has fold equity) or not raise at all.

[wjmooner]

Pleae explain why you think the Fundamental Theorem of Poker advocates calling an all in after there has already been another caller. I am honestly curious as to why you think Sklansky would advocate calling here according to the Theorem.

This is almost always suicide. Here you were against AK and AJ, but you will usually be against AK and JJ (for example), in which case you are drawing to 2 outs.

Chris

[rjb03]

[ QUOTE ]
Pleae explain why you think the Fundamental Theorem of Poker advocates calling an all in after there has already been another caller. I am honestly curious as to why you think Sklansky would advocate calling here according to the Theorem.

This is almost always suicide. Here you were against AK and AJ, but you will usually be against AK and JJ (for example), in which case you are drawing to 2 outs.

Chris

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he is being overly-results oriented and inconsiderate of the correct preflop action.

[rybones]

from the way I see this hand history, I really agree with the last post. imo the min raise is bad. I get that you are trying to add value to the pot in case you hit your set. This would be good if you were the first raiser. However, with the size of the first raise, it looks like they were begging for a raise so they could re-raise. Just call here. If there is a giant bet on this flop then you know you are beat. However, I find the weak tight fish at party often check when their big cards don't hit. This means you can check too and see that 7 for free. Now, you are home free.

Alas, these are just my thoughts and comments are always welcome.

Ryan

[chill888]

[ QUOTE ]
I am halfway through The Theory of Poker and I have the Fundamental Theorum of poker on my mind. According to the theorum, I should have called here

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm not so sure it's violating this theorem. Although maybe it's close. But WITHOUT seeing their cards preflop - it is one of the easier folds ever. Because:

Personally If i saw their cards face up before the flop, I am only about a 43% favorite to win the hand
and winning it is no guarantee of cashing. Since I would cash more than 43% of the time in a $20 S&amp;G it's a lousy deal. Although of course the bigger stack might lead to more 1sts.


Separately, what was with your raise of 30. 77 is a limping hand at this stage and a little bet does nothing good and plenty bad.

1. I may scare a bit of implied odds out of the pot AND

2. It gives a guy a chance to reraise you out of the pot.

3. Wastes 30 perfectly good chips.


good luck

[AndrewB]

Thanks for all of the feedback, I agree that the min raise pre-flop was a very weak play. I was hoping to isolate the UTG raiser while risking the minimum amount of chips but the BB decided to foil my plans with his all-in. My normal isolation raise would have been 2-3x the original raise, but I didn't want to commit that many chips considering my short stack.

As far as the application of the FToP goes, a 43% chance to triple up is not a terrible edge in general but I agree that early in a tournement is not the time to press the issue.

Some of the things mentioned in this thread were exactly what I was hearing in my head when the gambler in me was pressing me to push. I know I would have pushed a month ago before I started reading this forum, so at least I am on the right track

[lucas9000]

that's an automatic fold with no second thoughts. you've got two all-ins ahead of you and someone yet to act behind you. that early in the tournament, with that many people still in, you fold without blinking. that you would have won the pot in retrospect is irrelevant.

[schwza]

just call the first time it comes around, then fold to the two all-ins.

a more reasonable question is: what would you call with here? i think i'd fold QQ and call KK.

[binions]

Haven't read the other replies, but why the baby re-raise of UTG raise to re-open the betting? 77 in back is a hand you want to see a flop with cheap.

As for calling all in, no way. While you are 11-9 against unsuited over cards and 13-12 against suited overcards, there are 42 hands out there (6 ways to make 88-AA) that you are a huge dog to. Among decent players, a third raise from the BB usually signifies a big pair. Throw in the fact that the SB may call too, and I am NEVER playing 77 3-4 handed for all my chips early in the tourney.

[wjmooner]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as the application of the FToP goes, a 43% chance to triple up is not a terrible edge in general but I agree that early in a tournement is not the time to press the issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think one mistake you are making in the theorem application, although you did end up folding, is that you have no idea that you are a 43% favorite to triple up. If I saw those two hands face up I would probably call here, but like I said earlier you usually are in much worse shape (like 15-20%).

Chris

[chill888]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As far as the application of the FToP goes, a 43% chance to triple up is not a terrible edge in general but I agree that early in a tournement is not the time to press the issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think one mistake you are making in the theorem application, although you did end up folding, is that you have no idea that you are a 43% favorite to triple up. If I saw those two hands face up I would probably call here, but like I said earlier you usually are in much worse shape (like 15-20%).

Chris

[/ QUOTE ]

The theorem says (in part):

"Every time you play a hand differently from the way you would have played it if you could see your opponents cards they gain........."

So as I said, I'd fold ... even if I could see my opponents cards ... so I was disagreeing with the poster that he had a problem with the theorem.

gl

[ddubois]

When the action first got to you, why did you re-min-raise? That was your first mistake.

When the action gets back to you with two all-ins, it's a trivially easy fold, FTOP be damned.

If you could see they had AJs and AKo, then folding would be a mistake, sure, but so what? (BTW, I don't know what chill is thinking; passing up a 43% chance to triple up this early can't be right.) The best we can do as players is use our skills and reads to put players on ranges of hands. It's just not possible to know for certain both players have big aces.

[stupidsucker]

Need KK or AA to call here.

I fold 77 so fast I will forget what I had.