J7s in the blinds 15-30

[Paluka]

Online 15-30 game.
UTG limps, folded to the sb who limps. Both players are complete unknowns. You check J7s.
The flop is 667, none of your suit. The sb bets out. What is your plan for the rest of this hand?

[astroglide]

raise.

sb reraises: call the flop. call any bets, bet any street if checked to, and fold if checkraised.

sb calls: bet every street and fold if checkraised.

utg won't be a factor in this hand very often.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
raise.

sb reraises: call the flop. call any bets, bet any street if checked to, and fold if checkraised.

sb calls: bet every street and fold if checkraised.

utg won't be a factor in this hand very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be my standard plan on this hand (or close to it). There have been a few hands lately that have made me wonder if it is worth it to get involved in such a small pot when I could be drawing to 2 outs. Am I just gunshy because of a bad September?

[garyc8]

It matters whether the 7 on board is suited to one of the 6's since that offers a greater chance sb is semi-bluffing.
Either way I raise the flop since you need to knock UTG off of overcards if your hand is best. If sb just calls, and checks the turn another bet may knock him off a stronger hand (i.e. A7).

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
It matters whether the 7 on board is suited to one of the 6's since that offers a greater chance sb is semi-bluffing.
Either way I raise the flop since you need to knock UTG off of overcards if your hand is best. If sb just calls, and checks the turn another bet may knock him off a stronger hand (i.e. A7).

[/ QUOTE ]

The board is not suited, and the sb is not folding a better hand. Does this change your play?

[astroglide]

i adjust HOW i play small or big pots, but i don't consider opting out of small pots if i think i have a good chance of being/staying ahead. i think you're good a lot of the time here and facing a bet from a naked ace, random overcards, a worse 7, or 55-22 often enough to show a long term profit. i know you know that stuff, i'm posting more to observe that maybe the whole "should i even bother in a pot this small?" mentality reeks, at least for me, of gunshyness.

[garyc8]

Yes.
If there is no chance sb will lay down 7, good kicker you have 2 choices (IMO):
A. Fold. It's a small pot anyway, and the implied odds are nothing special.

B. Raise to kick UTG. If sb 3 bets fold. If sb calls, bet if checked to on the turn. Fold if check raised on turn (unless the 7 falls of course). If sb goes into call-down mode take the free showdown on the river. your hand is not strong enuff to value bet unless it improves.

[mmcd]

your hand is not strong enuff to value bet unless it improves.

lol

[garyc8]

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[mmcd]

A river value bet is pretty damn clear in this situation. If your opponent had you beat, he would have shown some aggression somewhere, not gone into "call down mode" The only hand he could hold that might play this way would be Q7. A7 and K7 find a raise somewhere as does a 6 or any overpair. You will be called by any 7 any pocket pair and often times A-high. The strongest hand that I think my opponent is likely to fold here is somewhere around K-high. Any better hands than that will call you more often than not.

[steeser]

What do you do if you raise the SB and UTG stays in the hand? At the 15/30 I've seen people call 2 cold with overcards.

So if UTG call, do you go into check mode to see how UTG reacts if the turn doesn't help.

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
So if UTG call, do you go into check mode to see how UTG reacts if the turn doesn't help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely not. If you are convinced that UTG has overcards and the turn likely misses him, you must bet if checked to. If he has 88, 99, or TT (unlikely without a PFR), good for him.

[steeser]

I wasn't saying you were convinced they have overcards. They could have something A6s and called two cold on the flop with the intention of betting/raising the turn.

[MrGo]

[ QUOTE ]

Either way I raise the flop since you need to knock UTG off of overcards if your hand is best. If sb just calls, and checks the turn another bet may knock him off a stronger hand (i.e. A7).

[/ QUOTE ]

He'd a be a horrible player if he folds A7 in this pot.

[King_J]

What is the worst card in the deck on the turn
a. If UTG cold-call and sb calls?
b. UTG folds and sb calls?

I would say a T if just sb calls. But I am not really sure whats the worst card if UTG calls... What would you do against both opponents if that worst card you could imagine hits the turn?

[MrGo]

[ QUOTE ]
They could have something A6s and called two cold on the flop with the intention of betting/raising the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you get checkraised on the turn, you fold. Simple as that.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
A river value bet is pretty damn clear in this situation. If your opponent had you beat, he would have shown some aggression somewhere, not gone into "call down mode" The only hand he could hold that might play this way would be Q7. A7 and K7 find a raise somewhere as does a 6 or any overpair. You will be called by any 7 any pocket pair and often times A-high. The strongest hand that I think my opponent is likely to fold here is somewhere around K-high. Any better hands than that will call you more often than not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really agree with most of this. You were the big blind this hand. You are the player in the hand who is most likely to randomly have a 6. There are certainly many players online that will go into check and call mode with hands that beat yours. I also don't think you should assume A high will call you down all that much.
What if I told you the sb was a very strong player. Do people still play this hand the same way?

[Ed Miller]

i know you know that stuff, i'm posting more to observe that maybe the whole "should i even bother in a pot this small?" mentality reeks, at least for me, of gunshyness.

Remember that the pot is small for your opponent too. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[mmcd]

I was assuming a typical party 15 idiot. I think a fair amount of those types will lead out with absolutely nothing in a 3-handed pot on a ragged board hoping to pick up the pot. If it was a strong player, I'd certainly consider folding more of an option, BUT I kind of doubt he'd lead out with a 6 in this situation, and if he 88 or better, I think a preflop raise would be likely. I still think you figure to have the best hand here. Whether he pays you off all the way with a pocket pair or a worse 7 depends on how he views your play.

[astroglide]

most people see unraised 3way pots (sb + bb + limper) as a good stealing opportunity

[elindauer]

Raise. Most players would check a 6, but bet a draw, a weaker seven, even a total steal. You're very likely to be ahead here.

my 2 cents.
Eric

[Ed Miller]

most people see unraised 3way pots (sb + bb + limper) as a good stealing opportunity

Especially when the flop is paired

[Lawrence Ng]

call on the flop,

If UTG calls and sb bets the turn, you raise the turn no matter what card falls down. You need to represent the 6.

If UTG doesn't call and sb bets the turn, you raise the turn too.

If SB checks, of course it's a bet on the turn for you.

Key to this hand is that you want to make more money since the pot is small. If they are chasing their overcards, straight draws, whatever draws, it's not correct for them to do so even for 1 small bet, and ultimately a raise on the flop is not going to chase either one away if they are on straight draws with overcards.

A raise on the flop screams a 7 here. I hate that. A decent/good player will know that if you have a 6 in your hand there's no way you'd raise the flop. You would slowplay it.

There are times to pump top pair on the flop, but this isn't one of them.

[astroglide]

Especially when the flop is paired

i would say much less so now. people know that people know that having trips isn't very likely there. a couple scenarios:

you raise with AJ in lp and the bb calls. flop is 663. he will checkfold most of the time because he knows that you don't believe him holding a 6. it pretty much takes a call on the flop and a checkraise on the turn to sell it, and that's too high a price. i would maintain that they're more likely to bet/checkraise on a bluff on a 237 flop.

you're in the bb in an unraised pot and the flop is 663. if you bet, you're now more likely to get raised by the limper because he doesn't believe you and it's only 2 sbs and he still has 2 overs if you have a 3 or a pocket pair or whatever.

the "take it to the next level" reraise on this is pretty much a dead concept because it elicits a "[censored] you buddy, i'm calling" mentality on both sides, so even if people know what is happening the "solution" is to just see a showdown.

[Senor Choppy]

[ QUOTE ]
Especially when the flop is paired

i would say much less so now. people know that people know that having trips isn't very likely there.

[/ QUOTE ]

The avg. 15/30 player online is much more sophisticated in his thinking than most people realize.

I think a surprising number of players recognize that a board with two 6s is infinitely more difficult to bluff at than something like K85.

[thwang99]

Does this change if after your flop raise, you get 2 cold callers, along with the SB? And the turn comes, say a high overcard like a Q?

In these situations, I'd check-fold the turn a lot of times. Someone has me beat (most likely one of the two cold callers). If not, it's very hard to play the turn, river, which if it's an overcard to the 7 (not too hard to come), with 2 players behind me, I'm not sure what to do. Then again, I tend to fold close to even EV hands, I know I need to get more aggressive.

- Tony

[J_V]

You summed up these situations perfectly. I agree 100% with everything in this post.

[J_V]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to represent the 6.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Better hands than yours aren't folding (IMO), so there isn't a point to overrepresenting your hand.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
You summed up these situations perfectly. I agree 100% with everything in this post.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everything astro says in that post as well. Do you also agree with his original recommendations on how to play the hand? His suggestions would normally be my default play, but I'm wondering if there is any other reasonable line.

[sthief09]

if I was sb, I'd probably bet out with a wide range of hands, including Ax, any pocket pair, any draw, maybe some 3-flush/3-straight draw. it's a small pot and I'm thinking that no one is going to chase. I'm getting 3-1 that everyone will fold to my bet, and I probably have outs even if I'm behind.

I think that's a good reason to raise with J7 from the BB here.

[J_V]

I like Astro's default lines after raising (especially, the folding to checkraise). However, I would call the SB's bet here about half the time. If I call the flop, I am committing to a showdown, assuming the UTG player folds.

However, the more I think about calling and raising the flop, I like raising better.

[Stormwolf]

I have a question about this hand, why the line 'call and let him keep bluffing' is not viable option here?If UTG cames along then you could raise on the turn, does anyone know?