Thank you for disconnecting me, PartyPoker!

[VarlosZ]

So I'm at a NLHE $100 ($1/$2) table on Party, and I've built up a healthy stack, to about $200. I'm dealt KK in late position. UTG+1 raises to 7. Fold, call, and then . . . oh, christ! I've lost my connection!

I close and restart the program, but I don't get back to the table until the middle of the next hand. [censored].

I relay this tale of woe to the table. Right away, three people tell me it was a "good time to disconnect." Huh? It seems the big stack at the table had QQ, but hit a set. Instead of losing $200 (or at least a big chunk thereof), I lost $0.

Thank god for PartyPoker's mediocre software.


Aside: Did I really save $200? That is, does PartyPoker set the order of the deck at the start of the hand and leave it as such, or does it constantly shuffle the remaining cards? Thanks.

[MicroBob]

If everyone else finished the hand then it is likely that YOUR connection was the reason for your disconnect.....not party's servers (not necessarily though...especially if the search-player, buddy-list disconnect-bug still applies).


[ QUOTE ]
That is, does PartyPoker set the order of the deck at the start of the hand and leave it as such, or does it constantly shuffle the remaining cards?

[/ QUOTE ]


Huh??

[daryn]

you should be pissed that you missed out on that great +EV situation

[Blarg]

Dunno, MB. Ever have happen what I do -- one attempt to connect is almost impossible or very very slow, and you get that trying to connect box over and over...then cancel out, and when you retry, get in right away? I think some of their servers are just really worse than others -- or line condition or something acts up.

[Morta]

Yesterday I was playing some normal FL ring tables. Suddenly, one of the tables goes into the "internet delayed for xx amount of seconds" and does this frequently in the next 5 minutes. The thing is, the other tables were fine and dandy. That was very strange /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[VarlosZ]

That's true, it could have been a problem on my end, or some sort compatibility issue (i.e., a problem on both ends). On the other hand, I lose my connection like this on Party with some regularity (once every week or two, say); I've lost my connection on PokerStars exactly once (I play about as frequently on each).

[ QUOTE ]
"That is, does PartyPoker set the order of the deck at the start of the hand and leave it as such, or does it constantly shuffle the remaining cards?"
.
.
Huh??

[/ QUOTE ]
Does Party does just set the order of the deck once and leave it at that, or do they reset the order of the remaining cards prior to dealing the flop, turn, and river?

[Chipr777]

I'm not quite sure what your asking but from what I gather I don't think you folding changed the flop or outcome of the hand in any way.

[PuertoKid]

[ QUOTE ]

Aside: Did I really save $200? That is, does PartyPoker set the order of the deck at the start of the hand and leave it as such, or does it constantly shuffle the remaining cards? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure that the deck is not set and that each draw is randomly generated based on a variety of data at the time the draw is made.

[Adde]

I'm pretty sure that the deck is not set and that each draw is randomly generated based on a variety of data at the time the draw is made.

Me too.

This actually has a nice side effect. Since the community cards would not have been the same if you had called preflop, you cannot feel bad for folding even if the flop should hit your mucked cards hard. This concept should help you concentrate on playing well instead of relying on luck.

On the other hand, it is still a good thing that other people do this, and thus is lured in to make bad calls next time.

Adde

[_And1_]

"Yesterday I was playing some normal FL ring tables. Suddenly, one of the tables goes into the "internet delayed for xx amount of seconds" and does this frequently in the next 5 minutes. The thing is, the other tables were fine and dandy. That was very strange "

Same thing happened to me to. My third table lost connection and never came back, thou i was playin fine on the other two at the same time, very weird...

[Adde]

Same thing happened to me to. My third table lost connection and never came back, thou i was playin fine on the other two at the same time, very weird...

They run different tables on different servers, so most likely the server for the third table was having network congestion or something.

Adde

[BlueBear]

Whatever cards came out is irrelevant and that's the last thing you should be thinking about.

[teddyFBI]

[ QUOTE ]

This actually has a nice side effect. Since the community cards would not have been the same if you had called preflop, you cannot feel bad for folding even if the flop should hit your mucked cards hard. This concept should help you concentrate on playing well instead of relying on luck.



Very well put, I think, and something I think people here should think about for a few moments if they haven't done so already. I tried to explain this to a friend of mine once when his mucked pair hit a set, and he thought I was just giving him the standard "don't stress over your mucked hand" advice. But online, as was pointed out here, there's actually a complex overlay to that because if it's true that each card dealt is randomly generated, then -- unlike in a real card game where the next card is predetermined (and hence one could say "look, I would have hit my set), online it's much easier to ignore whatever cards come, secure in the knowledge that the outcome might have been different had I called instead of folded.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]

Aside: Did I really save $200? That is, does PartyPoker set the order of the deck at the start of the hand and leave it as such, or does it constantly shuffle the remaining cards? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, wasn't there a case where two consecutive hands were EXACTLY the same (hole cards and boards) on party? Their explanation was that the RNG happened to get seeded with the same number twice in a row or something like that (which makes sense to me.) Point is, if that is the case, they shuffle the deck before cards are dealt, and probably reseed before each suffle.

I already looked up one article to link today, maybe someone with ambition will track this one down.

[GrannyMae]

Actually, wasn't there a case where two consecutive hands were EXACTLY the same (hole cards and boards) on party? Their explanation was that the RNG happened to get seeded with the same number twice in a row or something like that (which makes sense to me.) Point is, if that is the case, they shuffle the deck before cards are dealt, and probably reseed before each suffle.

I already looked up one article to link today, maybe someone with ambition will track this one down

i am able to tell you that this is all true because i was in the SnG. this was from the 1st or 2nd day they offered PPM sat's, and it took 3 hours to fill a tourney. i got more letters of apology from linda johnson (who was the main spokesperson at the time) and other programmers that my inbox filled up fast. had they not reacted quickly and decisively, this would not have been good for their early reputation. it was already NOT good for their reputation because it was dissected at rgp for weeks, but obviously they moved past it.

the repeat hand happened, we went crazy in chat, then the tourney suddenly ended. they had live monitor/floor on this tourney (linda herself).

10 minutes later we all got our $22 refunded, plus 1 freerolls for another tourney (cheapass mofos).

many here that know me will know my handle in these. i would rather not be identified because i don't want to tie anyones loose ends together on other people's notes and databases.

full thread can be found HERE (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&frame=right&rnum=1&thl=0,1343917431,1343755484,1 343620267,1343608785,1343607267,1343257587,1343248 188,1343171005,1341735707,1341693348,1341520691&se ekm=3b775d11%40news.adfa.edu.au#link1)

this is top post only


<font color="green">

Message 1 in thread
From: yoyojemojo (j-vincent@adfa.edu.au)
Subject: IDENTICAL HANDS on Party Poker - sorry Mike &amp; Linda but people should be able to hear about it


View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.gambling.poker
Date: 2001-08-12 21:52:41 PST


The following two hands occurred on a $22 buy-in qualifying tourney on Party
Poker a couple of weeks ago. As you can see the hands are absolutely
identical....all 25 cards the same, in the same order.

What are the odds of this happening, well refer to the post a week ago on
which Sklansky and the Baron had a bit of debate about maths, shame and some
other boring stuff. I can't remember if it was 1000 trillion, or 100
trillion, but anyway some amazing number.

What does this mean then? Well, I leave it to you to discuss.

THE FIRST OCCURRENCE:

***** Hand History for Game 92442 *****
15/30 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (Tournament #13001) - Thu Aug 02 04:50:21 EDT
2001
Table PartyPokerMillion 4 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Proulx (770)
Seat 2: soulsearchin (710)
Seat 3: Blinds (605)
Seat 4: Clubette (455)
Seat 5: Spike_tt (1080)
Seat 6: deshane (695)
Seat 7: Shadow007 (695)
Seat 8: chowlee (770)
Seat 9: Bobby_B (845)
Seat 10: Strikis (1375)
Blinds posts small blind (10)
Clubette posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Strikis [ 9h, 9d ]
Spike_tt folds.
deshane calls (15)
Shadow007 calls (15)
chowlee folds.
Bobby_B folds.Strikis raises (30)
Proulx calls (30)
soulsearchin folds.
Blinds calls (20)
Clubette folds.
deshane calls (15)
Shadow007 calls (15)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8d, 5d, 7d ]
Bobby_B: this is going to be a looong tourney
Blinds bets (15)
deshane raises (30)
Shadow007 folds.
Strikis calls (30)
Proulx raises (45)
Blinds calls (30)
deshane calls (15)
Strikis calls (15)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 3d ]
Blinds checks.

deshane checks.
Strikis checks.
Proulx bets (30)
Blinds calls (30)
deshane calls (30)
Strikis calls (30)
** Dealing River ** : [ 7h ]
Blinds checks.
deshane checks.
Strikis checks.
Proulx bets (30)
Blinds calls (30)
deshane raises (60)
Strikis folds.
Proulx folds.
deshane shows a full house, Sevens full of fives
Blinds mucks
** Summary **
deshane wins 585 chips from the main pot with a full house, Sevens full of
fives.

THE SECOND OCCURRENCE:

***** Hand History for Game 92484 *****
30/60 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (Tournament #13001) - Thu Aug 02 05:07:00 EDT
2001
Table PartyPokerMillion 4 (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Proulx (905)
Seat 2: soulsearchin (470)
Seat 3: Blinds (410)
Seat 4: Clubette (755)
Seat 5: Spike_tt (1125)
Seat 6: deshane (1055)Seat 7: Shadow007 (320)
Seat 8: chowlee (545)
Seat 9: Bobby_B (800)
Seat 10: Strikis (1615)
Strikis posts small blind (15)
Proulx posts big blind (30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Strikis [ 9h, 9d ]
soulsearchin folds.
Bobby_B: $10 bounty for blinds
deshane: come on
Blinds folds.
Clubette calls (30)
Spike_tt folds.
deshane calls (30)
Shadow007 calls (30)
chowlee calls (30)
Bobby_B folds.
Strikis calls (15)
Proulx checks.
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 8d, 5d, 7d ]
Strikis checks.
Proulx bets (30)
Clubette calls (30)
deshane raises (60)
Shadow007 folds.
chowlee folds.
Strikis calls (60)
Proulx calls (30)
Clubette calls (30)
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 3d ]
Strikis checks.
Proulx checks.
Clubette checks.
deshane checks.
** Dealing River ** : [ 7h ]
Strikis checks.
Proulx checks.
Clubette bets (60)
deshane raises (120)
Strikis: deshane = fulldhouse 5 over ! 7
Strikis folds.
Proulx folds.
Clubette raises (120)
deshane raises (120)
Clubette calls (60)
deshane shows a full house, Sevens full of fives
Clubette mucks
** Summary **
deshane wins 900 chips from the main pot with a full house, Sevens full of
fives.

Party Poker rang us and gave us their explanation. If anyone is interested,
let me know and I will pass on what they told me on the phone. Mike's story
first hand......

Somehow I have a tiny little feeling that either Mike or Linda might post a
little something here anyway.

Google Home - Advertising Programs - Business Solutions - About Google
</font>

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, wasn't there a case where two consecutive hands were EXACTLY the same (hole cards and boards) on party? Their explanation was that the RNG happened to get seeded with the same number twice in a row or something like that (which makes sense to me.)

[/ QUOTE ]
If this is the case, they have serious problems with their shuffle algorithm. There should be 52! permutations of a shuffeld deck. If one seed produces the exact same shuffle each time and the largest RNG seed is less than 52!, some shuffles are not possible.

I think that Paradise and UB and Stars do continuous shuffles. I'm not sure about the Party skins. It would not surprise me if they didn't.

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, wasn't there a case where two consecutive hands were EXACTLY the same (hole cards and boards) on party? Their explanation was that the RNG happened to get seeded with the same number twice in a row or something like that (which makes sense to me.)

[/ QUOTE ]
If this is the case, they have serious problems with their shuffle algorithm. There should be 52! permutations of a shuffeld deck. If one seed produces the exact same shuffle each time and the largest RNG seed is less than 52!, some shuffles are not possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is exactly the reason pattern maps are not only possible, but likely to be in use as we speak.

cheers!

[Beavis68]

According to everything I have read, Party is one of the few sites that actually creates a fixed deck at the beginning of the hand.

[Homer]

Thank god for PartyPoker's mediocre software.

Wrong.

Aside: Did I really save $200? That is, does PartyPoker set the order of the deck at the start of the hand and leave it as such, or does it constantly shuffle the remaining cards? Thanks.

It is irrelevant. You should be pissed off about missing out on a hugely +EV situation. On average, every time you get $100 in as a 4:1 favorite, you'll win $60 [(4*$100 - 1*$100)/5]. Party cost you $60.

-- Homer

[meow_meow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, wasn't there a case where two consecutive hands were EXACTLY the same (hole cards and boards) on party? Their explanation was that the RNG happened to get seeded with the same number twice in a row or something like that (which makes sense to me.)

[/ QUOTE ]
If this is the case, they have serious problems with their shuffle algorithm. There should be 52! permutations of a shuffeld deck. If one seed produces the exact same shuffle each time and the largest RNG seed is less than 52!, some shuffles are not possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is exactly the reason pattern maps are not only possible, but likely to be in use as we speak.

cheers!

[/ QUOTE ]

Please tell me that this is some kind of subtle sarcasm...

[junkmail3]

I love how the guy with the full house won more the second time.

[daryn]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In risposta di:</font><hr />
Thank god for PartyPoker's mediocre software.

Wrong.

Aside: Did I really save $200? That is, does PartyPoker set the order of the deck at the start of the hand and leave it as such, or does it constantly shuffle the remaining cards? Thanks.

It is irrelevant. You should be pissed off about missing out on a hugely +EV situation. On average, every time you get $100 in as a 4:1 favorite, you'll win $60 [(4*$100 - 1*$100)/5]. Party cost you $60.

-- Homer

[/ QUOTE ]


wow homer, did you read my post first? said exactly the same thing in almost the same words. it would be weird if you didn't see it first.

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
I love how the guy with the full house won more the second time.

[/ QUOTE ]
The blinds went up.

[GrannyMae]

I love how the guy with the full house won more the second time.

funny thing is that i had garbage cards and said to myself:

"OH, great site!! deals me same crap 2 hands in a row! i think i'll go back to planet after this SnG, there were 5 games going and i am sitting here in this ghost town!!"

http://smilies.sofrayt.com/%5E/g/menani.gif

[tripdad]

just having a bit'o fun...don't get all "catty" on me now.

cheers!

[Homer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thank god for PartyPoker's mediocre software.

Wrong.

Aside: Did I really save $200? That is, does PartyPoker set the order of the deck at the start of the hand and leave it as such, or does it constantly shuffle the remaining cards? Thanks.

It is irrelevant. You should be pissed off about missing out on a hugely +EV situation. On average, every time you get $100 in as a 4:1 favorite, you'll win $60 [(4*$100 - 1*$100)/5]. Party cost you $60.

-- Homer

[/ QUOTE ]


wow homer, did you read my post first? said exactly the same thing in almost the same words. it would be weird if you didn't see it first.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I didn't read it. I don't read threads now before posting.

edit - just read your post. i would say i expanded on it, not repeated it.

[VarlosZ]

[ QUOTE ]
you should be pissed that you missed out on that great +EV situation

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whatever cards came out is irrelevant and that's the last thing you should be thinking about.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thank god for PartyPoker's mediocre software.

Wrong.

Aside: Did I really save $200? That is, does PartyPoker set the order of the deck at the start of the hand and leave it as such, or does it constantly shuffle the remaining cards? Thanks.

It is irrelevant. You should be pissed off about missing out on a hugely +EV situation. On average, every time you get $100 in as a 4:1 favorite, you'll win $60 [(4*$100 - 1*$100)/5]. Party cost you $60.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guys, thanks so much for assuming I don't understand EV. Made my day.

[ QUOTE ]
Party cost you $60.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes and no. EV is an extremely useful tool, but it's hardly the only valid way of thinking about a situation. From the perspective of someone trying to analyze a decision, either before or after the fact, it's clearly best to think in terms of EV. On the other hand, being happy or unhappy about the actual (not expected) results of a particular hand is perfectly valid.

Saving $200 because of dumb luck, then being upset about it because you lost some EV preflop, through no fault of your own, is clearly missing the forest for the trees. The time to be upset about my losing +EV was before I knew an unfavorable board was imminent . . . and I was.

[Homer]

Guys, thanks so much for assuming I don't understand EV. Made my day.

"Aside: Did I really save $200? That is, does PartyPoker set the order of the deck at the start of the hand and leave it as such, or does it constantly shuffle the remaining cards? Thanks."

What do you propose we do when you post something like the above?

Saving $200 because of dumb luck, then being upset about it because you lost some EV preflop, through no fault of your own, is clearly missing the forest for the trees. The time to be upset was before I knew an unfavorable board was imminent . . . and I was.

I'm not sure I understand. I'd still be ticked off afterwards. In the long run, you're losing $60 everytime a situation like this occurs. It seems to me that your thinking is result-oriented.

-- Homer

[VarlosZ]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, thanks so much for assuming I don't understand EV. Made my day.

"Aside: Did I really save $200? That is, does PartyPoker set the order of the deck at the start of the hand and leave it as such, or does it constantly shuffle the remaining cards? Thanks."

What do you propose we do when you post something like the above?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd propose you treat it as a question about the method online poker sites use to determine which cards are dealt. I have no idea how asking that question implies a lack of appreciation for the importance of EV, but since you weren't the only one to infer as much, I'm probably missing something.

[ QUOTE ]
Saving $200 because of dumb luck, then being upset about it because you lost some EV preflop, through no fault of your own, is clearly missing the forest for the trees. The time to be upset was before I knew an unfavorable board was imminent . . . and I was.

I'm not sure I understand. I'd still be ticked off afterwards. In the long run, you're losing $60 everytime a situation like this occurs. It seems to me that your thinking is result-oriented.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thinking about the effect in the long run of being disconnected with KK preflop, I'm upset. Thinking about the effect of being disconnected with KK preflop in this particular case, I'm glad. Neither line of thinking is inherently better than the other, nor are they mutually exclusive.

Besides, there is a sense in which your thinking is results-oriented. Since I have an advantage at a typical Party $100NL table, I should be upset about being disconnected, period. The cards in my hand during some particular instance of disconnection are no more or less important than the cards that wound up on the board and in the other hands.

The disconnection didn't cost me $60 in EV, it cost me whatever my average profit per hand is. When determining the amount of EV the disconnection cost me, to consider my hole cards, but not the other hands or the upcoming board, is arbitrary.


-- Jeremy

[VarlosZ]

I said:
[ QUOTE ]
When determining the amount of EV the disconnection cost me, to consider my hole cards, but not the other hands or the upcoming board, is arbitrary.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, that's poorly worded.

Your distinction wasn't really arbitrary, since you were talking about the situation preflop (KK vs. QQ), with an unknown board yet to come.

My point was that, assuming the cards I hold have no effect on the likelihood of disconnection, then they're not really relevant to the EV of disconnection in general. It makes no more sense to be very upset about being disconnected w/ KK than it does to be happy about being disconnected before an imminent suck-out. Do you disagree?