Is this an easy flop cap situation?

[Kevin]

I really struggle with with when to ram and jam big draws and when to back off. Since this is such a big multi-way pot, it seems like it would be exhibit A for when to cap.

I just wanted to make sure.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(8 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero...

[Chris Daddy Cool]

put in as many chips as they allow you to on this flop.

[Stellastarr]

nice flop. get em in the middle.

[bakku]

Cap the turn too if the board doesn't pair.

[Kevin]

Not that the results matter... but I think it was the biggest pot that I have won (in terms of bbs - net +29bbs). I just wanted to make sure if 4th and 5th were brick, brick, it was still the right thing to do. Since M2 coldcalled 78o and flopped the ass end straight, I was 41% to win. He was pretty upset with me after the hand for capping the flop "when I didn't even have a pair".

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(8 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (22 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, CO folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP2 calls, UTG calls.

River: (34 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 37.33 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 37.33 BB, between Hero, MP2 and UTG.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Hero (37.33 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG has 6d 4d (flush, jack high).
Hero has Kd Ad (flush, ace high).
MP2 has 7s 8c (straight, jack high).
Outcome: Hero wins 37.33 BB. </font>

[sublime]

Situations like this are sooooooooooooooooo fun. Cap this beatch!

[joker122]

Nicely played, nice hand, and especially, nice pot.

[BUKIFAN8]

This post is boring. Please don't waste our time.

[maxpowers21]

I would cap this flop heads up every time for value, maybe even against .8 of a person. So if happen to get a multi pot such as this click the raise raise and reraise button as fast as you can.

[HajiShirazu]

Isn't poker fun?

[MicroBob]

I hope you added MP2 to your buddy-list.
If not, shame on you.

[drinkman]

Hate to disagree...results notwithstanding - comments to follow
[ QUOTE ]
I really struggle with with when to ram and jam big draws and when to back off. Since this is such a big multi-way pot, it seems like it would be exhibit A for when to cap.

I just wanted to make sure.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(8 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't think a raise on the flop is in order here, let alone a cap (results not withstanding).
1st - what are you up against? With 6 players in, you're probably looking (right now) at made straight(s), a smaller flush draw and perhaps a set - set unlikely because of pre-flop action: I could see a raise or re-raise w/ 9-9, 10-10. or J-J
So, what is the purpose of your raise <font color="blue">HERE</font> ?
To drive players out? - The 3 hands that I mention wont fold to a raise and/or cap. Weaker hands may fold, yet those are the ones you want in.
To build a pot? - Again, players who have you beat will call/re-raise, the only one(s) you have beat here that will stay are weaker flush draws.
If you do make your hand you are a huge favorite, but right now you are a dog to at least 2 (if not 3)hands.
So, a raise here is all risk, no reward (if you don't hit your hand).

On the turn - You hit your card! Now what? If you just called the SB on the flop MP2 would still raise and now you have extra info! Perhaps a check would be in order on the turn as well - w/MP2 betting and (hopefully) the smaller flush raising. With you calling all the way.
On the river it should be more of the same with you 3-betting (after checking) and possibly getting capped by either of the other 2.
Note-if the board pairs on the turn or river you still have to call it down.

[donny5k]

Do not listen to this guy, not raising/capping here with 5 people willing to stay in is ridiculously bad. You will take this pot far more often than 1/6 of the time, in fact significantly more than 1/3 of the time. You are risking nothing. You are building a pot in which you will win more than twice as often as your share of pot equity plus the overlay from the preflop betting. When you have 12 outs to the nuts and that many people in, not raising is ridiculously wrong and I can't believe this guy can be against it. And why in God's name would you slowplay the nuts on the turn here. Not only are you missing bets since tons of people are in and seem to want to stay in until the river, but like you said, someone may have a set or 2 pair and you need to make them pay to draw here.

You are by no means trying to drive players out on the flop, you want EVERYONE in. It is all about pot equity. drinkman, if you think raising here is wrong, then you should be ADAMANTLY against raising preflop with AKs, after all, you are risking so much, with no reward unless you hit your hand. This raise here is routine with just a nut flush draw and not the broadway gutshot.

[challenger84]

Lee? Is that you Lee?

[garyc8]

This is a no doubt about it cap. everyone is already trapped for multiple bets. They are all going to call your 4 bet. For those who ask what the purpose is: VALUE.

[Entity]

This post makes baby jesus cry.

[sluttysteve]

A kitten just died.

[drinkman]

Didn't say it was a bad play, just throwing out a little more analysis.
[ QUOTE ]
Do not listen to this guy, not raising/capping here with 5 people willing to stay in is ridiculously bad. You will take this pot far more often than 1/6 of the time, in fact significantly more than 1/3 of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
The question was about capping on the flop - NOT how strong his hand was. [ QUOTE ]
You are risking nothing. You are building a pot in which you will win more than twice as often as your share of pot equity plus the overlay from the preflop betting. When you have 12 outs to the nuts and that many people in, not raising is ridiculously wrong and I can't believe this guy can be against it.

[/ QUOTE ] With 12 outs you're 25% to hit your hand here - odds are there for sure, but why not wait ill the bets double?[ QUOTE ]
And why in God's name would you slowplay the nuts on the turn here. Not only are you missing bets since tons of people are in and seem to want to stay in until the river,

[/ QUOTE ] With MP2 likely to raise you may keep CO, SB and BB in for 2 bets and then re-raise and catch another bet from one or all of 'em [ QUOTE ]
but like you said, someone may have a set or 2 pair and you need to make them pay to draw here.


[/ QUOTE ] Agreed, but HERO doesn't have to put in the initial raise. [ QUOTE ]

You are by no means trying to drive players out on the flop, you want EVERYONE in.

[/ QUOTE ] Exactly...keep 'em in - with players to act behind you let someone elase do your betting (as it turned out MP2 did)There are other ways to get more money in the pot than raising. [ QUOTE ]
It is all about pot equity. drinkman, if you think raising here is wrong, then you should be ADAMANTLY against raising preflop with AKs, after all, you are risking so much, with no reward unless you hit your hand.

[/ QUOTE ] Relax, I was hoping to get some discussion about the REASON for the raise and the effect it has on a large, multi-way pot. Raising with AK pre-flop is a different situation. [ QUOTE ]
This raise here is routine with just a nut flush draw and not the broadway gutshot.

[/ QUOTE ]

[MicroBob]

What's with the red/brown color. Are you trying to distinguish yourself from the masses who say this is an obvious raise?


[ QUOTE ]
If you just called the SB on the flop MP2 would still raise and now you have extra info!

[/ QUOTE ]

What extra info do you need exactly?

You are not raising to drive anyone out of the pot....you are raising because you get value when everyone calls you.
He's around 1:4.5 or so to hit the nuts on the turn.

There are more than 4.5 callers. Every bet that the other players put into the pot is +EV for him.

Get it??
Well, at least I tried.

[drinkman]

[ QUOTE ]
What's with the red/brown color. Are you trying to distinguish yourself from the masses who say this is an obvious raise?


[/ QUOTE ] didn't know the colors were different.

[ QUOTE ]
If you just called the SB on the flop MP2 would still raise and now you have extra info!


What extra info do you need exactly?

[/ QUOTE ]

The info is that he will bet after you check...and you can come back and re-raise.
[ QUOTE ]

You are not raising to drive anyone out of the pot....you are raising because you get value when everyone calls you.
He's around 1:4.5 or so to hit the nuts on the turn.

There are more than 4.5 callers. Every bet that the other players put into the pot is +EV for him.


[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed - although lets not look at # of callers, but # of bets...
Capping on the flop gets you an additional 1.5BB (from the 3 who folded the turn) . If you check the turn and MP 2 raises (as he did)you may keep the 3 that folded in for 2 BB each (6 BB) and then re-raise and get them for another BB. If only 1 player (who folded) calls MP 2s raise on the turn you get MORE VALUE from your hand (2 BB vs. 1.5 BB)even if they fold to your re-raise or MP2's cap.

[ QUOTE ]

Get it??
Well, at least I tried.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for trying.... /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[bdk3clash]

"Don't think a raise on the flop is in order here, let alone a cap (results not withstanding)."

I disagree. I'll give my reasoning in response to your points.

"1st - what are you up against? With 6 players in, you're probably looking (right now) at made straight(s), a smaller flush draw and perhaps a set - set unlikely because of pre-flop action: I could see a raise or re-raise w/ 9-9, 10-10. or J-J"

This is just silly. Remember that your opponents have much, uh, different standards for betting and raising on the flop than you or I do.

More importantly, on this flop you have a monster draw. Keep in mind that on flop your play should be dictated by a few things:

-You have a huge draw. You have 9 outs to an Ace-high flush, 3 outs to the nut straight, and 6 outs to top pair, top kicker. Some of these outs have to be discounted, since they might improve your hand while making someone else's hand even better (for example, if you make a flush but the board pairs and gives someone a boat).

But you're drawing to so many cards that are either certain or likely to give you the winner that your pot equity here is quite high. I'm sure someone really smart like StellarWind or sthief09 can give some figures, but you should be able to recognize that you have a huge hand on this flop.

-You are committed to seeing the river. Based on the size of the pot and the number of players already involved, there is not a chance you will not be seeing the river, so your flop play should take this into consideration.

Let's use the "Small Stakes Hold'em" (have you read it? you should) method and approximate how many outs we have--that is, in the long-run, how many cards give us a winning hand.

Whatever number you come up with, the important thing to remember is that you will be getting x outs twice, drawing not from the flop to the turn, but from the flop to the river. This is an important thing to understand, since your chances of hitting your draw from the flop to the river are better than from the flop to the turn or the turn to the river.

"So, what is the purpose of your raise HERE?
To drive players out? - The 3 hands that I mention wont fold to a raise and/or cap. Weaker hands may fold, yet those are the ones you want in."

You are absolutely not looking to get anyone to fold in this pot. If they do, it's not a disaster or anything, but the players that put a bet in are not likely to fold on the flop for any number of bets when it comes back to them, and given the pot size most players who act after you are going to be calling multiple bets with any piece of the flop, or not much at all.

Even if someone showed you a set or whatever, you would still probably be correct to raise here. A lot of times these big multiway hands end up as a kind of cabal between the best hand at the moment and the best draw, who almost monopolize the pot equity.

"To build a pot? - Again, players who have you beat will call/re-raise, the only one(s) you have beat here that will stay are weaker flush draws.

An important thing to realize is that made hand/drawing hand distinctions on the flop are not particularly important. In a multiway hand like this, you're pouring money in the pot because of the chance that you'll have the best hand when the dust settles. Whether you have a set at the moment (and hope it holds up/fills up) or whether you have a monster draw (like you do here) doesn't change the fact that you're getting an overlay (you'll be returned more than your fair share of on all the best you're putting in the pot on the flop.)

You're getting the best of it here, which is exactly what you want when you're playing poker.

"If you do make your hand you are a huge favorite, but right now you are a dog to at least 2 (if not 3)hands."

First of all, I don't know what you're getting at. You have some percentage chance of having the best hand at showdown here. It's more than 1/6 or however many players you think you can trap for multiple bets on this flop.

"So, a raise here is all risk, no reward (if you don't hit your hand)."

How can you say that raising here is all risk, no reward? The reward is all the extra bets than wouldn't have gone in on the flop if you hadn't raised. You're going to get those bets back some portion of the time, and it'll be frequent enough that in the long run you'll earn more by raising than calling here.

"On the turn - You hit your card! Now what? If you just called the SB on the flop MP2 would still raise and now you have extra info! Perhaps a check would be in order on the turn as well - w/MP2 betting and (hopefully) the smaller flush raising. With you calling all the way."

Bet bet bet raise raise raise. This pot is huge, people are going to get frisky. Why you would want to call here and risk this one not going multiple bets on the turn is beyond me. No need to be sneaky here, just fire those chips into the middle with the nuts. They'll call, maybe raise.

"On the river it should be more of the same with you 3-betting (after checking) and possibly getting capped by either of the other 2."

Whatever, I don't know if you're saying you should checkraise here after apparently calling the hypothetical capped turn action where you didn't raise once.

"Note-if the board pairs on the turn or river you still have to call it down."

No [censored].

Read this (http://slicer.fekali.com:3455/16/26) and this (http://slicer.headsupclub.com:3455/16/31).

[Entity]

Against 7 opponents, if MP2 tabled JJ after the flop, I'd still cap.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: 06.0922 % [ 00.04 00.02 ] { AA-TT, 88, AKs-ATs, A8s, KQs-KTs, K8s, QJs-Q2s, JTs, T8s, 98s, AKo-A2o, KQo-KTo, QJo-Q2o, JTo, 87o-82o }
Hand 2: 02.2225 % [ 00.02 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 07.7502 % [ 00.06 00.02 ] { AA-TT, AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 4: 02.2828 % [ 00.02 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 5: 31.5813 % [ 00.31 00.01 ] { AdKd }
Hand 6: 42.3959 % [ 00.42 00.00 ] { JJ }
Hand 7: 07.6750 % [ 00.06 00.02 ] { AA-TT, AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo }

[/ QUOTE ]

[drinkman]

Tank you for the insightful response and the two links.
I never thought capping was a huge mistake, nor do I think an alternative play would be a huge mistake. I guess from my chess background I try to look ahead as to how my current move (bet, raise, etc) will affect later moves in the game (hand).
I was looking to keep people in (I think we all agree on this)- I think the call on the flop may keep more players in for the turn when the bets double. See my "More Value" post for the full idea.

[Jimbobobb]

You seem to think that hero has the same odds on the turn. Odd change from when there are 2 cards to come to 1 card. Many times capping on the flop will be correct, but raises on the turn will *not* be for value. On the flop, hero is a 1.9 to 1 to make his hand. If the turn is a brick hero drops to a about 3.8:1 and needs more callers for raising to be for value. Get the money in while people are willing to put it in and you're winning more than your fair share.

[garyc8]

What you said. Even if the nuts is needed to win,appr. 30% of the time you end up there. (Based on the flop). Hero and whoever is leading on the flop are pretty much chopping up the others. Bleed them dry! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[stinkypete]

this is one of those situations where at the B&amp;M you say "that's how you build a pot boys" while you're raking it in. all the fish will tell you, or at least think that you're a terrible player because you're betting and raising on nothing but a flush draw (fish don't think about overcard draws when there's a flush draw, nor would they think it correct to raise the draw even if they did.)

you can usually get some people on tilt as well. when they berate you for betting your draw, just say "i knew it was coming."

[CLC]

ElitistSmallStakesPosterMan wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
This post is boring. Please don't waste our time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This reply is boring AND redundant, please don't waste our time!!!!!

[TheHip41]

Might as well cap. With 8 players, and the nut flush draw, it's for value.