Middle Limit Holdem by Ciaffione... help

[TStoneMBD]

I'm a NL cash game player and have been trying to hone my limit skills. I've been reading the Middle limit holdem book by Ciaffione and while I find that its a great book because it covers specific hands rather than general theory as most books cover, I noticed that while reading the questions and answers to the poker problems he presents, I find that I disagree alot with what he has to say. I notice that he plays hands in alot of ways other than what I have seen from the posts here in the limit forum and different from the way I would play my own hands.

Because I disagree with alot of what Ciaffione says in his book it makes me question if I should highly reevaluate my game or if its true that alot of what he advises is incorrect or misleading. I know that there are many hands in his book which are highly debated on these very forums, but there are many hands that havent been debated that I still disagree with.

When you guys read his book did you feel the same way as I do or is it that I still have alot of leaks to plug?

Thanks in advance

[SinCityGuy]

Quite frankly, most of the advice given in the book will cause you to get run over in loose/aggressive games.

The book does have some valuable information. I found the chapter on bluffing to be useful.

[Doubling12]

It is a very different book than SSH, put it that way. Don't have the book in front of me, but I think in the intro he says that he assumes (on average) 3 people play each pot, and a decent amount of them are raised. If the game you are playing matches this, the book is very good.

[SinCityGuy]

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Don't have the book in front of me, but I think in the intro he says that he assumes (on average) 3 people play each pot, and a decent amount of them are raised. If the game you are playing matches this, the book is very good.

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If the game you are playing matches this, then you should move to a different table.

[TStoneMBD]

actually in alot of the hands he talks about 6 people see a flop. he tries to emphasize in "the flop" section when to try to pickup pots and he says you cant do it with more than 2 other players in the pot.

[3rdCheckRaise]

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actually in alot of the hands he talks about 6 people see a flop. he tries to emphasize in "the flop" section when to try to pickup pots and he says you cant do it with more than 2 other players in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
...and he is right about that. I haven't seen 5 people fold for one flop bet in about 7 month. I heard a rumor that somewhere in Taj 4 people folded for one bet on the flop about 3 month ago, but i think its an urban legend... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[JasonP530]

Some situations are useful, but the game is so much more agressive now than it ever was. If you have KQ, and the flop is Q rag rag, and it is bet and raised to you, Ciaffone would advocate a fold. I would put your percentage of being ahead at over 80 for sure. You just cant lay it down.

The description of his thought process helped a lot, and going through the hands can get you on your way to thinking about the game more deeply. Not all of the advice he gives is bad though, and it does have some excellent points.

[TStoneMBD]

yah i do realize that the play of limit has become far more aggressive and therefore this is probably why i disagree with some of what he says.

[Senor Choppy]

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actually in alot of the hands he talks about 6 people see a flop.

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One of the things to keep in mind is that a situation where 6 people see the flop instead of the usual 3 is a lot different than a table where 6 people are constantly seeing flops.

The book is excellent if applied correctly.

[garyc8]

I have not read the book in question, but from what I'm reading here I think you should set it aside and read the twoplustwo stuff. I consider the S&M work on hold'em to be "the bible" of limit play, and so do most successful players I know. It has certainly helped my game more than anything else I've read.

I apologize if this post is somehow redundant.

[Turning Stone Pro]

No books have helped me more than the S & M limit holdem treatises.

However, I also felt that, upon an initial reading of Ciaffone and Brier, I disagreed with much of the content -- I found myself talking to myself as I was reading the problems and trying to guess the answers.

Upon studying the book and the many examples it contains, however, I changed my opinion.

I think the Ciaffone book does an excellent job with driving home the critical importance of, among other things, the effects of having a "coordinated" board with cards in the "playing zone".

I can honestly say that this book GREATLY improved my post-flop limit holdem skills, and has added a significant amount of big bets to the bankroll.

Just my opinion, FWIW.

TSP

[TStoneMBD]

one thing that i should have mentioned while reading this book is that after reading his questions im usually right when guessing what his answer would be but still choose to disagree with alot of it. i think i got a read on his abc style /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

thanks for the posts

[gergery]

I think the book is awesome, and has helped my play more than any other book. There is no other book or source that has this many good, relevant examples with excellent analysis (this forum for example, while excellent, often has hands posted that have limited learning value or incorrect advice, and those hands aren’t grouped together by turn play, 3-flush boards etc.)

I think the other posters are accurately pointing out that Ciaffone’s conclusions about what action to take are for pretty tight games with good players. And since I don’t play in those games, I don’t follow his advice on how to play the hands. But this is the best book by far for highlighting the most relevant issues to consider in a given situation.

Separate the analysis (best I’ve seen) from the recommended play (which isn’t that helpful).

--Greg

[AceHigh]

It's a good book but you have to realize pretty much all the hands are written with a specific game or type of table in mind.

It will NOT match the games you play in.

Understand how you game varies from the one they describe and adapt your play accordingly.