Folding Jacks, or am I just weak?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Here are two hands that came up which involved me folding jacks without seeing a river card.

Bad guy in this hand is unknown to me.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">MP2 caps</font>, Hero calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (17 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, UTG folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 12.50 BB, won by MP2.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to MP2.</font>

This is really a matter of "range of hands." I don't know what my foe has exactly, but given the range of hands my opponent may have, it's not worth the extra 2bb to find out if my jacks are good.

Or am I just weak?

Here my opponent is also unknown. basically because I'm really bad at keeping notes or paying attention at all while I play.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="666666">7 folds</font>.

Flop: (5.33 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 4.16 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 3.66 BB, won by UTG+2.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 0.50 BB, returned to UTG+2.</font>

I guess a case could be made for seeing the turn to see if he'll bet a non-spade or checks, but the pot is tiny and I'm facing huge reverse implied odds. Or am I just weak?

[JARID]

Hand #1:

I don't think typical PP guy makes this move with TT or AK, so I agree, you can chuck it. Although he may not be typical PP guy, but you don't know that because you're not paying attention, but you know this. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Hand #2

I'm done here too. For me this is one of those hands that I hate when I'm running bad, flops are missing etc. You're having to fold a lot and you begin to feel like you are getting pushed off hands.
A case could be made for seeing his action on the turn, but IMO he raises the flop here, he will bet the turn and you are no better off.

-Jarid

[MAxx]

i cant call you weak by any means. ouch those are ugly boards, improving with another jack doesnt even look that settling.

i'd be much more likely to fold #2 than #1.

neither fold looks horrible, but i'd be much more inclined to stick around and call down #1.



main reasons.... 1) pot size 2)flush draw appears on turn- one less street to fight flush if that is the holding. that and the possiblity that the turn flush draw was cause of turn raise.

Edit: based on the range of hands, I think that folding to turn raise is better than calling down against an UNKNOWN.

Edit2" damn #2 looks like it could easily be a free card play against you. i still fold.

[cold_cash]

Hand 1 seems much more clear than Hand 2, but both look okay to me.

Actually, I have a couple questions for you. In Hand 2 would you still fold if there was only one overcard with the two-flush? (Say if the flop was Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif instead?)

I think you might be able to make a case for pulling a stop-n-go in Hand 2 and folding to a raise, in case he's betting a draw and/or looking for a free card. If he just calls the turn bet the river play is really hard for me, though. Like you said, however, the pot probably isn't so big that you need to be sweating it too much.

[Nate tha' Great]

You? Weak-tight? HA ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

These are easy 3-bets for you. For a normal player, they are easy folds.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Hand 2 situation you described where it was Qs8s2d. i still may muck.

i would consider the stop n go on a non spade.

against some oponnents i will completely ignore his flop raise and 3-bet and lead the rest of the way.

these types of hands are very player dependent, so against an unknown with position on you in a tiny pot, i think folding may be the best play.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
You? Weak-tight? HA ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

These are easy 3-bets for you. For a normal player, they are easy folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you calling me a chip spewer?

yea, in our little short handed 15/30 games against some of the beer drinking lags, i'd be forced to 3-bet and 17-bet if party allowed me to.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
are you calling me a chip spewer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are your words, not mine.

[ QUOTE ]
yea, in our little short handed 15/30 games against some of the beer drinking lags, i'd be forced to 3-bet and 17-bet if party allowed me to.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to refrain from commenting on my perception of your perception of my level of aggression since there could be $$$ at stake.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

anyways back to my 2 hands. i actually do think every once in a while and not just click "bet/raise any"

[bakku]

[ QUOTE ]
anyways back to my 2 hands. i actually do think every once in a while and not just click "bet/raise any"

[/ QUOTE ]

Only when playing 3/6 and below.