Underbetting the pot in PL

A while back someone mentioned that they saw Ray Zee do this frequently when playing PL. What is the strategy behind doing this? I would think the advantage is that if you offer people what looks like a good price to "take one off" they often take it, even if the odds they are receiving still aren't correct. Perhaps people have an easier time psychologically folding to a pot-size bet. Any other thoughts behind this strategy?

First of all, you have to be an excellent player for this strategy to work (like Mr. Zee obviously is). You've got to be EXCELLENT (not good) at reading hands, your image has to be right and even then there are a LOT more things that should be considered, especially from a "balanced strategy / avoiding giving away information through betting amount" point of view. BTW, Mr. Zee himself explained his PL/NL strategy just a couple of months ago on this forum (in a thread where Mr. Angelo was also involved, if I'm not mistaken).

Part of the idea is that if you are really just buying the pot from someone who has nothing, you can often take it for a 1/2 pot size bet or so. So when he has something, you lose less and when he's got nothing, you can take the whole pot down for less risk.


However, you have to be sure and do this with the nuts sometimes as well. This is fine because observant players will sometimes check-raise you when you underbet if they suspect you are buying. Since you sometimes underbet with the nuts, you discourage this and also get paid nicely when you have a monster and they think you are just buying the pot again.


Rolf is right. The key is being able to do it without giving away information. Being predictable is death in pot and no limit so you can't only underbet when you're stealing. You might as well show your cards and a good player could literally pick up on this within a VERY short time.


natedogg

A commen feature of micro-blind games on Ultimatebet and Poker Stars is the "microbet". Not betting the pot, not half the pot but firing all of 50c into a $5 pot.


Any ideas on how to react to these? There is a part of me that wants to raise them all in for being such wimps - and part of me that thinks they are just trying to drip 50c per round out of me and would just love it if I played back.

Well there is a simple strategy for the micro bets. Call if you have something, you may win or you may lose, but for 50c losing doesn't matter. If you have either a big hand or nothing, raise a reasonable amount (not allin as you suggest, you may also have troubles with other players left to act). That way you can still dump your hand if they come over the top again.


And Rolf how long ago was the thread with Ray's PL/NL gameplan? I couldn't find it

i did, a year ago, thus i knew where to find it...


Re: Ray Zee's underbetting at no-limit

Posted by: Ray Zee

Posted on: Sunday, 18 February 2001, at 11:02 p.m.


since its one of my tactics i wont go into everything i could. sorry but thats the rub.


one reason is by betting small into larger pots many times you get to win with nothing at all with little to lose. simple formula. it works until they start raising you. so next step is to be betting small with hands that can stand raises as well. also soon they start calling you because they see you can call raises so they cant blow you off the pot with nothing. since they are now calling you alot you can bet an awful lot of weak hands into them that win alot when called and hands that you would have to fold if you checked and they bet. all this starts to require pretty good play so you can fold to the people that have good hands and call those that are running you off. also knowing which ones to bet at so you can get called where if you bet more they wouldnt call at all. the main money you make comes from winning lots of medium sized pots that you would certainly lose if you checked or if you bet alot and got called you would have the worst of it as well. also because they get afraid to raise you you bet your draws into them where if you check they may bet too much. so you get to draw cheaply as well. so there are lots of ways to make betting small into bigger pots at no limit pay. for most people though it still makes sense for them to bet nearer to the size of the pot because they will get into too much trouble when players take off cheap cards against them. thats one of the major downfalls of betting too little and it can come back to haunt you quickly. the player that controls the betting at the table always seems to make the betting work for him. thats a plus of course.

That game is sooo much fun to play. Warning: most NL doesn't play that way. But try this: the next time someone does it and gets a couple callers, raise the pot. You will take it down far more often than the half the time needed to make it worthwhile. If you get called, pot it again. You will again take it down better than half the time. It's practically a double-down. Watch the stack sizes though: it won't work against a player who's almost all-in.