Seeking input from those who have moved beyond the Micro-limit ranks

[Aaron W.]

I asked the Micro limit forum this question, but got no real responses. There have been two recent posts that seem to be pointing people in different directions on the idea of calling with "Any two suited" in the blinds calling a raise in a multi-way pot.

This post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1084992&page=&view=&s b=5&o=) has people making the claim that Q4s from the big blind getting 11:1 is good simply for the flush and flopped monster value. There is something that looks like an argument, but it's not very convincing. I do want to point out that there's a claim that flush over flush is a negligible circumstance and should be ignored.

This post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1097075&page=&view=&s b=5&o=) has most people saying that calling 53s preflop getting 11:1 from the big blind is wrong. Again, not much of an argument. But here, there's worry of being dominated in suits.

I was wondering if anyone would be willing to help clear the air a little on the idea of calling with any two suited in the blinds against a raise. At what point is it pretty clear that it's good, and what point it is pretty clear that it's bad, and how wide is the 'it's marginal' chasm bewteen the two cases?

Thanks.

[Holm Fries]

[ QUOTE ]
I asked the Micro limit forum this question, but got no real responses. There have been two recent posts that seem to be pointing people in different directions on the idea of calling with "Any two suited" in the blinds calling a raise in a multi-way pot.

This post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1084992&page=&view=&s b=5&o=) has people making the claim that Q4s from the big blind getting 11:1 is good simply for the flush and flopped monster value. There is something that looks like an argument, but it's not very convincing. I do want to point out that there's a claim that flush over flush is a negligible circumstance and should be ignored.

This post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1097075&page=&view=&s b=5&o=) has most people saying that calling 53s preflop getting 11:1 from the big blind is wrong. Again, not much of an argument. But here, there's worry of being dominated in suits.

I was wondering if anyone would be willing to help clear the air a little on the idea of calling with any two suited in the blinds against a raise. At what point is it pretty clear that it's good, and what point it is pretty clear that it's bad, and how wide is the 'it's marginal' chasm bewteen the two cases?

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that Ed addresses this in his book. I think a call is correct in both instances (and reads don't matter) as long as you play well after the flop. You could argue for reraising the flop in hand one.

[crockett]

I've only been out of the micro-limits for a short time but here are my thoughts.

1. Who cares....let me explain.

SSH, HPFAP, and WLLH all talk about how this decision, whether it be +EV, or -EV is wasted hot air. The number of times you will be faced with the decision to put in 1 little bet at 11:1 in a raised pot over the course of your life is really not worth arguing. If you do call...how you play it from that point on is where your money will be made or lost. SSH gives the best example by explaining how if you check/folded the river every time you hit a royal flush it would be less of a mistake if you consitantly limp with trash hands such as J4o, etc.

2. My thoughts...I would play 53s before Q4s because it has both str8 and flush value. Q4s has no str8 value and basically no high card value because even if you do hit a Q your in the "people will fold if you bet or call/raise you with better hands, so you win a little when you do win and lose more when you don't win"

[spamuell]

Q4s has no str8 value and basically no high card value because even if you do hit a Q your in the "people will fold if you bet or call/raise you with better hands

You've never had top pair and been called down by a lower pair? Also, if you flop a flush draw but back into a Q, this is much more likely to be good than if it hits on the flop, and you are more likely to get paid off.

As for the specific hands, I really don't know if they're +EV or -EV, as you say it doesn't come up much and I've never actually done any simulations or EV calculations. Generally, I don't trust what most people say on the forums though about hands like this because they just say what they feel, although some know better.

[crockett]

You make good points about the Q hand...thanks.

[pudley4]

Calling with any two suited from the blinds, getting 7-1 or more, is correct the vast majority of the time.

Those who advised folding in the referenced posts, when getting 11-1, are insanely wrong.

The most compelling argument(s) for calling are that you are about 8-1 against flopping a flush/flush draw, so getting 7-1 or better is enough for just the draw. Add in the times you flop a pair or better, and you're easily getting the odds needed to see a favorable flop. The times you lose to a bigger flush are very small.

[lil']

I would call with both. I'll worry about flush over flush when I'm dead.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
The most compelling argument(s) for calling are that you are about 8-1 against flopping a flush/flush draw, so getting 7-1 or better is enough for just the draw. Add in the times you flop a pair or better, and you're easily getting the odds needed to see a favorable flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if you're playing any two suited (ie suited non-sense like T3), when you flop a pair, you're playing top pair no kicker way out of position against a preflop raise. Also, if you're in this position, the preflop raise probably came very close to your left. So you've got to bet and hope it gets raised by the agressor, or else you're stuck in this hand without much useful information (many players will call if it's not raised on the flop). And this isn't a very comfortable situation and you're often getting the worst of it. Are the times that you get your flush really enough to cover these situations?

[Aside: The other option (one that I've been favoring recently) is to check and see what happens. If it's bet and raised, I can let go without losing much sleep over it. If it's bet and folded back to me, check-raise. If it's one bet and lots of callers, just call and see what the turn brings my way (being ready to bet out if no overcards fall, ready to check-raise an excellent card).]

[AliasMrJones]

You're about 6% to hit a flush starting with 2 sooted cards. With Q4s, you're in EP with no kicker if the Q hits. (And that is assuming your pair of queens is good against the raiser.) You're getting 11:1 now, but will have more bets to pay later if you are lucky enough to pick up the flush draw.

Without better high card strength or a straight possibility to go with the possible flush, is it really worth calling with 11:1 odds to hit an approx. 20-1 (by the river) shot?

[mistrpug]

[ QUOTE ]
SSH, HPFAP, and WLLH all talk about how this decision, whether it be +EV, or -EV is wasted hot air. The number of times you will be faced with the decision to put in 1 little bet at 11:1 in a raised pot over the course of your life is really not worth arguing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your understandind of EV is dead wrong.

[Gatts]

[ QUOTE ]
You're about 6% to hit a flush starting with 2 sooted cards. With Q4s, you're in EP with no kicker if the Q hits. (And that is assuming your pair of queens is good against the raiser.) You're getting 11:1 now, but will have more bets to pay later if you are lucky enough to pick up the flush draw.

Without better high card strength or a straight possibility to go with the possible flush, is it really worth calling with 11:1 odds to hit an approx. 20-1 (by the river) shot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, because if you flop a four flush, it's no longer 19:1, it's 2:1. You'll also flop ragged two pairs and trips.

The thing is, you don't have to put any more bets in later if you don't get it. You're not going to put in four bets on the flop with just a backdoor draw... with a hand like this, you get to decide when your money goes into the pot. If you flop a strong draw, it'll almost always be correct to a) see the turn for as many bets as possible and c) see the river if you do not hit your draw on the turn.

Just because you see the flop doesn't mean you have to see the river; but most of the time, if you are seeing the river, you're benefiting from it.

The thing is, you're putting approximately 8% of the money in preflop. Very rarely will two suited cards NOT have 8% equity against most raising + cold calling hands.

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The most compelling argument(s) for calling are that you are about 8-1 against flopping a flush/flush draw, so getting 7-1 or better is enough for just the draw. Add in the times you flop a pair or better, and you're easily getting the odds needed to see a favorable flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if you're playing any two suited (ie suited non-sense like T3), when you flop a pair, you're playing top pair no kicker way out of position against a preflop raise. Also, if you're in this position, the preflop raise probably came very close to your left. So you've got to bet and hope it gets raised by the agressor, or else you're stuck in this hand without much useful information (many players will call if it's not raised on the flop). And this isn't a very comfortable situation and you're often getting the worst of it. Are the times that you get your flush really enough to cover these situations?

[Aside: The other option (one that I've been favoring recently) is to check and see what happens. If it's bet and raised, I can let go without losing much sleep over it. If it's bet and folded back to me, check-raise. If it's one bet and lots of callers, just call and see what the turn brings my way (being ready to bet out if no overcards fall, ready to check-raise an excellent card).]

[/ QUOTE ]

See? It's not so hard /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Aaron W.]

Thanks for your vote of confidence.

But my point remains - you still lose a bet or two when you do this (if not more). Do you really get enough overlay from your implied odds (which has been cut down because your preflop investment is larger) for these cases, plus the times you hit your head on the wall when there are 4 of your suit on the river and that guy held his Axo all the way to the end?

[lefty rosen]

Once you move beyond about 2/4(and it's not a Friday night or past midnight) tables that play like retardo micro limit tables are thin and far between. But if you get overwhelming odds to call the queen 4 you call it and same with 5/3 which plays well with many in or a guy trying to steal the blinds, but that's about it......