A Late Play

[RacersEdge]

A lot of limping going on at this table, so thought I would go with this hand if no more than 1 limper. I think maybe a bigger raise PF would have been better. The button didn't have the odds but made call anyway. Comments?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed)

BB (t375)
UTG (t2000)
MP1 (t415)
MP2 (t1495)
Hero (t810)
Button (t1720)
SB (t1185)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t50, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t100</font>, Button calls t100, SB folds, BB folds, MP2 calls t50.

Flop: (t375) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
MP2 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets t200</font>, Button calls t200, MP2 folds.

Turn: (t775) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets t510 (All-In)</font>, Button calls t510.

River: (t1795) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1795

[Chasinjason]

Frankly, I think this is a terrible play.
Theres only one limper, and its at the 50 level, by raising the min you know your getting called by at least 1 player. You have 43s which is a multiway hand which this pot won't be. If your trying to steal, which is a bad play as well, raise more. But this is a fold hand for sure.

[Hood]

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of limping going on at this table, so thought I would go with this hand if no more than 1 limper.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really sure what your goal is here - what is "go with this hand"? Are you aiming to take this pot PF uncontested with your min-raise? Encourage more players?

[chill888]

this is a good post ........ on how to go broke with a perfectly good stack, early in the tourney, for no good reason at all. Trying to outplay players requires the right situation. Just deciding cause you feel like it, early on, is crazy.

You should fold preflop .. but if trying to stop limpers preflop then bet enough to make them fold. Your bet of 100 is eliminating no-one and just wasting chips with a nothing hand. After flop, semi-bluffing at the pot is not the stupidest thing ... but putting ALL your chips in against potential strength with no hand is pretty close it.

gl

[wjmooner]

turn is the only part of the hand I like. Hero turned 2 pair and pushed. He is ahead of the vast majority of hands that called the flop here.

C

[RacersEdge]

Yes, I was goig for steals here - don't see why that is a bad play. Yes, as I mentioned, the PF raise should have been more - even though this table was pretty passive.

I read this post by EmarkM and I thought his ideas were good ones:

Blind stealing - Once the blinds get to 50/100, then you need to open up and start stealing. As others have suggested, this means just open raising when it gets to you in LMP/LP with just about anything. Not everytime, but enough to at least keep pace. Sometimes you don't get a lot of chances as there are raises ahead of you by aggressive players. Middle stages is all about stealing so you can't just wait for cards or you'll get ground down. You don't always have to have it folded to you to steal either. Sometimes you'll get one of those guys who limps too much looking for multiway action. You'll know he's doing it with a moderate hand since he's done it before and check-folded the flop. I often take a "no limping on my button" attitude and will raise any 2 on the button and watch him and the blinds fold and pick up a nice pot.

I was in the CO, but my hand was definintely better than "just about anything". Maybe I was a little over the top since BB were still at 50, but then again, I'm 2 or 3 hands away from being only 8X BB in stack size.

[rjb03]

43s is better than just about everything? Explain please. Also, if you want to steal blinds you shouldn't be min-raising as players will call with more than they would with 3x BB raises here.

[wjmooner]

When EMarkM says "when it gets to you" he means when the hand gets folded to you. This hand was not folded to you, there is already a limper. Is there a player on the planet who will limp and then fold to a minimum raise? Plus, your minimum raise does nothing but price in the Big Blind as well, since he can assume the pot is going to be three way at least.

Steals can be done with nothing, but usually should be done with at least something. 43 beats exactly two hands heads up (42, 32) so you picked a horrible hand to raise with. that being said you need to raise at least 3x the big blind to pick up the pot without a flop.

So, no, your hand was not better than "just about anything," it was better than about 2 hands if you only get one caller.

But there's already a limper, so you fold.

As has been mentioned, don't get too fancy.

C

[ilya]

That was a great post by EMarkM, but he was talking about multi-table tournaments -- not SnGs.

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I was goig for steals here - don't see why that is a bad play.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't steal with the minimum raise after someone has already limped. Period.

If you want to steal, raise more. Then again, very little reason to steal at the 25-50 level. Particularly with 43.

[RacersEdge]

[ QUOTE ]
When EMarkM says "when it gets to you" he means when the hand gets folded to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

EMarkM: [ QUOTE ]
You don't always have to have it folded to you to steal either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I should have explained that this is the concept with which I am experimenting. If you wait around for a a pair or AK, you will get ground down a lot. And - at least at Party 10+1 - if you wait until even CO-2 and later for decent cards and the table to fold to you, you will be stealing about 1 blind every 3 tournaments. I do agree the raise needs to be more than minimal - even though as you see at this passive table the BB folded to just that min raise.

[rjb03]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When EMarkM says "when it gets to you" he means when the hand gets folded to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

EMarkM: [ QUOTE ]
You don't always have to have it folded to you to steal either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I should have explained that this is the concept with which I am experimenting. If you wait around for a a pair or AK, you will get ground down a lot. And - at least at Party 10+1 - if you wait until even CO-2 and later for decent cards and the table to fold to you, you will be stealing about 1 blind every 3 tournaments. I do agree the raise needs to be more than minimal - even though as you see at this passive table the BB folded to just that min raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

The BB is not your concern...MP2 is. It is highly unlikely that a limper will fold to a minraise and thus your raise was nothing near the definition of a steal.

[chill888]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When EMarkM says "when it gets to you" he means when the hand gets folded to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

EMarkM: [ QUOTE ]
You don't always have to have it folded to you to steal either.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I should have explained that this is the concept with which I am experimenting. If you wait around for a a pair or AK, you will get ground down a lot. And - at least at Party 10+1 - if you wait until even CO-2 and later for decent cards and the table to fold to you, you will be stealing about 1 blind every 3 tournaments. I do agree the raise needs to be more than minimal - even though as you see at this passive table the BB folded to just that min raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

the concept you are experimenting with is a bad one. Luckily (if u are smart) you have received cheap (inexpensive) advice to stop the experiment.

gl

[TheDrone]

I agree with your post, but I have a small clarification. 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif is a favorite over more than two hands - 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for example. Yes I'm being nitpicky and it doesn't change the point of your post, it's just FYI. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[SmileyEH]

If you're going to steal - fine - but don't put out a wimpy ass good-for-nothing-minraise.

Bump it to 150 or 175 at least.

-SmileyEH

[RacersEdge]

Yep, that raise was pretty lame.

FYI, for those posters want a hand strength reference:

http://rwa.homelinux.net/poker/hand-rankings.html