for the umpteenth time . . .

keep your piddly internet pl and nl stories off this forum. internet Pl & NL poker is NOT poker. Limit poker is fine on the internet because its for mindless robots anyway. But PL/NL cannot be played or understood on line. And the situations you get yourself into in cyberspace are of no use to ANYONE! Cyberpoker is the equivalent of cybersex, a waste of time, and i dont want to hear about either of them.


Please, geeks of the world, make your way to your local card room and lose money to a real player, LIKE ME. I will be appearing at the Bike many wed. nights for the live no limit, thurs at palace station in LV. fri & sat. at the stardust and various other home games.


Try this on line: 2&5 NL @ Stardust (we kicked up the blinds) sucker has about $1000 I have $1000 and am sitting directly to his right. He raises or straddles almost every pot. At least 2 times an hour I get a chance to isolate with a limp re-raise (if i do it too often i will get re-popped by another cagy player)my cards dont matter because . . .he has a killer tell (a classic). As the flop is spread he will look at his chips if he intends to bet. he will look at me if he misses. HOW SWEET IT IS, the cards might as well be face up! I took pots down on three occassions with a bet on the flop without ever looking at my cards.

I think the fact that Mason/Chuck changed the name of this forum after we had a discussion of this very topic speaks for itself.


I do agree that it would be nice if there would be more posts on bigger NL/PL games.


Ken Poklitar

ohKanada@hotmail.com

I was playing in the 10c 25c no limit game on ultimate bet I was dealt 99 in the cutoff and raised $1, I was called by the BB and a limper. Flop is J high rainbow. BB bets 25c (as usual), limper calls. I raise $2, BB folds limper reraises TWENTY FIVE DOLLARS. I folded. What would y... oh shit just read the first line of your post again.

limon,


Any time you wanna play heads up 25-50 with 20K stacks I'm there. Stop by Lucky Chances at about 2 this Friday and I'll be happy to gut you like the fish that you are.

ive played at lc several times you nit. the game is not good enough to go so far out of my way. The only game i flew regularly for was the albq. game w/ banker sam (rip). Funny, i dont remember a blowhard named wednesday at the table, although many will remeber the occasional brit player who took the game for thousands. btw i'm a professional i dont get envolved in grudge matches unless im taking way the best of it. you are obviously an amatuer or you would have no inclination to put your money on the line against a proven pro. i seek to play against the worst players i can find at all times, you are probably among that group, but i dont want to put 50k on it and let you luck into my bankroll by cracking 4Q's w/a straight flush. I've done that in the past and learned from my mistakes. I will play the biggest or smallest NL/PL game in hte house i follow the suckers not the blinds.

limon,


Ok so If I'm a sucker then then play me. But you're afraid of bad luck? What 25-50 is too hi? You can't risk 10-20k against a sucker? How much do you make in a year? After all you are a "proven pro".


You play for money... I understand. Money is something I have lots of already. I play to win. I want to bust a hot shot pro that thinks he is god's gift to poker becuase he beats up on weak players. Come and get me if you can.

It seems limon can talk the talk but can't walk the walk...


FatLoser

MMmmmmm that chicken smells good.

Regardless of what you think about his personality, it's obvious to me limon is what he says. He knows too much about the games to be a railbird. I can't remember running into him, but if he played in Albuquerque, we have probably butted heads.


I know he pisses you guys off, but he's for real.

Unless Mason says differently it seems to me that this forum is appropriate for discussion of big bet poker games. While the games on the internet are definitely different from those played live there are some simularities. Its not exactly like this forum is overrun with posts such that its hard to keep up.


I would keep the "Internet Gambling" forum covering issues specific to internet gambling.

I can't see why postings about Ultimatebet games bother you so much Limon. As someone else has pointed out, this forum is not deluged with 100 posts a day like some of the others.


What makes pot or no-limit different to limit poker is the RULES, not the size of the stakes. Personally I am just starting to play no-limit, because as Mason has written in the past, it is a **LOT SIMPLER** than limit poker, and am interested in comments and strategies whether from internet games or your big-shot, "I'll-prove-I'm-a-man" games.

...to criticize everyone considering you have not posted here for 2 months.


Dude, online poker is indeed different from live games, but it does not mean that basic big bet strategy is different. A major mistake is a mistake whether online or not. Tells are less apparent online and that's why we like playing live more. But I really don't think anyone suffers when he learns that bottom 2 is a shaky hand in pot/no-limit Hold'em. The fact that it's at a 0.10-0.25$ online game or at a 25-50$ live game is irrelevant.


Everyone here is trying to improve their game and that's what these forums are for. And like someone else has said, it's not like this particular forum is filled with that many live big games posts. The internet forum has turned into a firewall, collusion, what site is better? forum and that's fine. I never post a strategic question on that forum.


I'm happy for you if you are that good a player so please enlighten us when we post hands.


Take care,


Nicolas Fradet (The Prince)

I am a "hot shot" pro precisely because I choose to beat up on weak players. That is the name of the game. The only time i see other pros at the table is at tournaments, other than that I avoid them like the plague. I am not part of the "fraternal brotherhood of poker players" nor do I want to be. I dont take partners, give percentages, bet horses, or put players in action. Most only notice me because of my accent, I learned poker in London where most games are PL or NL, many mistakenly think I'm australian.


Early in my career i always wanted to play pros I wanted to play the biggest game in the house, i wanted to make a million. I was severly misguided. Once I got my priorities straight and found that i could "quit work, play poker and sleep til' noon" life became much better. I dont make a fortune playing poker but i live good, I'm never on hte rail, i never play beyond my means, and I definately dont take cryptic 20k challenges from nameless opponents in casinos i've already dismissed as unprofitable.


I suppose if your as deep as you say you are i'll see you in the side games at the WSOP. If you find yourself seated next to an unassuming british gent in the 2-5NL offer him a 20k heads up challenge if he accepts its O'neil Longson, if he declines its me.

The Internet games are likely to be the breeding ground for most of your future opponents. It provides a place for players to become comfortable with big bet poker because of its low stakes. Therefore, they are more likely to play in a “real” cash game if one is available. For example, a player from Ohio on vacation in LV is probably much more likely to play big bet if he has been playing it for the last 6 months on UB. The downside (for you) of this is that he is probably better at big bet than someone who has only played limit and decided to give big bet a try if he doesn’t have a huge tell.

I could care less whether your cyberpoker is for 10 cents or 10 thousand. ITS NOT POKER! It's like limit, a watered down version of the REAL GAME. I'm not interested in it. If you cant see the man betting the pot at you then you cant see the bet. Only the number, that has very little to do with the bet. Its just a number. Cyberpoker and limit poker are like flag football, theyre watered down versions of the real game.


Does cyber poker help intoduce people to the world of big bet that I can later win money off of? I doubt it, tournaments do that.


I like to discuss a hand every now and again but if you notice most of my discussions are more people oriented, if you take the people out of poker there is no game.

I usually hate it when people play tough guy roles online, but I think (1) this guy's for real, and (2) that's unequivocally the best response I've ever seen in one of these grudge matches...

Flag football? Hmmmmm. How would a brit know about flag football?

limon: if you intend to play 2-5 upstairs at the WSOP, please wear a white gardenea. I intend to buy you the beverage of your choice as a reward for your KK post of a year and a half ago - then stay out of your way.

Limon,


for sure internet poker lacks the personal, face to face element of live poker, I can hardly deny that. I'm interested though - which of these is less like 'Real Poker': live face-to-face LIMIT poker, or internet NO-LIMIT poker?


I'm still not entirely sure why you sneer at limit poker. I repeat, it is a far more complex game than no-limit, far harder to play successfully. The main reason I have switched to no-limit (online) games is because it is VASTLY easier to turn in a consistent profit. Also, since I live in the UK, I need to familiarise myself with the particular skills of no limit and pot limit (eg. sizing bets correctly) if I am going to play in casino's here.

You wrote:


Personally I am just starting to play no-limit, because as Mason has written in the past, it is a **LOT SIMPLER** than limit poker


and


I'm still not entirely sure why you sneer at limit poker. I repeat, it is a far more complex game than no-limit, far harder to play successfully


This is a very dangerous attitude to have at the no limit tables.


natedogg

limit, in general, is . . . limited, because bluffing is at a minimum and bluffing IS poker. I beleive it was Amarillo who said without bluffing there is no game.


If you want to know how much "poker" there is in a game simply look at the number of hands that are shown down. In your average 30-60 and below limit game nearly every hand with any considerable action is shown down. This takes all the game out of the game.


Limit is like hunting with a bow and arrow, its sporty and you can still make a kill after alot of sitting and tracking and training and hard work. And its civilized to give the prey a sporting chance. But I guess im not that civilized. If i'm going to take the time to choose the best seat, watch every mannerism, watch every bet size, create a persona, be aware of position and bet speed and stack size, i dont want an extra half bet every hour. I WANT THE WHOLE FUCKING STACK.


another worthless game is NL games w/very short stacks. Nearly every hand gets shown down, its a waste of time.


The best and most profitable game for an accomplished player is a small blind deep money, nl or pl game PERIOD. Very few hands get shown down, and when they do its a monster. And the fish get eaten alive. The only losers in these games are the bad players and the house. Good players pay very little rake to make very large profits.


In a limit game what would you do if you noticed;


A player always checks a big hand, now you check to him and he bets. (you have nothing)


A player always limps w/aa and kk now he raises utg and gets called by a drunk you are in hte SB w/ nothing. BB is not protecting hand.


you limp to player on the button who loves to make small pot building raise. and as night wears on makes no attempt to disguise it.


a player bets quicker when on a draw.


a player wont lay down an overpair on the flop. and hes just limp re-raised you. you have 62 on the button the raise is $30 and you both have over $700.


a player will lay down an over pair to you because he thinks your a rock.


What would you do in limit with all this information? NOTHING. Youd still make the same sensible robotic plays. because you cant put a man to a truly tough decision in limit poker.


There is no game pre flop in limit because no one ever folds to a raise. And their call is mathmatically correct (or very close) even with a hand like J9 against AK or TT.


AT LEAST ONCE AN HOUR IN EVERY LOW BLIND PL/NL GAME YOULL PLAY YOU WILL HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE A "LOCK" PLAY WITHOUT EVER LOOKING AT YOUR CARDS. TRY THAT IN LIMIT.

Limit Poker is not a complex game, it is a game for formulaic math-types. A truly great player will make much more money in PL and NL, because in these games skill is at a larger premium. Limon is right- situations rarely matter in Limit. It is a game of formulas. Reading tells is rarely helpful. In limit, if you don't catch cards and avoid bad beats (which are very difficult to avoid) you lose. In PL and NL you can have junk all night and still make a profit, at least in a live game.

The internet provides me with a constant game- being that I live no where near a casino and have A difficult time getting PL and NL games together in my town, I like the oppurtunity to play PL online. It is easy money. Not as easy as it would be in person maybe, but easy enough to be worth the time. If poker is about making money, I see no problem with where it is played.

That said, limit poker does suck. That crap about it being more complicated is another way of saying "you can't win as much if you are good, but it is a lot less of a risk".

I suffer similar problems. Not only can i not get pot-limit and no-limit poker in my home town, i cannot get any casino poker games full stop.


Limon, makes some good points, and is obviosly a very good player, but the fact remains is that these forums are for the masses, not a select few high stakes players, who actually rarely post here.

Hey Nate,


yeah you are right, I am sure. To be honest, I am finding no-limit a little tougher than I thought (and am glad to still have my head above water in my first dabbles with it at UB), but really I had no great opinion and I was just trying to stir things up a bit... I find Mason's view on this interesting and wanted to hear opinions.


rgds,


BA

Limit poker is situational. You can adjust your play considerably, depending on the line-up you face *and* their stack sizes. To say otherwise is nonsense. Perhaps I am in a crazy minority, but I actually like *both* games.