Bottom 2 pair

Ok. Bottom 2 pair is a tough hand to play well at nolimit. If you bet out with bottom 2 pair on the flop and get raised (these players generally won't raise a set but will raise with top pair, or an overpair which they slowplay all too often), what is the best way to play?


I have been tending towards calling the flop and then overbetting the pot on the turn as long as the turn card doesn't look too scary.


Anyone else frequently approach this in a different way?

Reraise if your opponent is a player that can't release top pair.

My thinking behind just calling is that bottom two pair is hand that can easily be caught by top pair or an overpair. I'm just as likely to get the man to call for an overbet (or allin) on the turn if it is a blank, but I can easily get away if the top board card pairs, or an A comes (his most likely kicker to play a bit pot with).


Just my thoughts. I'd love for someone like ray or natedogg to comment on playing bottom two.

Mr. Peterson,


I like your style. I'm not a big fan of the argument "get all your money in on the flop since you have a slight edge" when playing hands that are easily counterfeited while still remaining easy to put down later on. For instance, in the event of deep stacks, going all in would be extremely costly in the event of runner-runner pair or the top card tripping. You know you're ahead, but just because the Yankees are winning again in game seven doesn't mean the series is over. Call his bet, and be prepared to lay down if his manner implies a set or a turn card he could easily be playing as his kicker arrives.


Max

I find it's much better with a hand like bottom two to be the raiser rather than the bettor. If you get reraised, you can generally lay the hand down, depending on the player, and even if you get called you have options on the turn.


I often will go for check-raises with a good-but-vulnerable hand like bottom two for that reason.


Of course, sometimes you have to bet out, but if you can get someone else to bet first on the flop, it makes the hand much easier to play in my experience.


- target

is he up or down at UB??? I totally respect his opinions on here, but I've seen some really questionable plays. In the .25-.50 no-limit game I seen him call a $20 river bet with pocket 8's and 3 overcards on the board. This was the second time I seen him go broke on pocket 8's. Either I miss reading his posts.

I have yet to see him play but I mostly play .10-.25 UB.


As far as calling a big bet on the river with 88 against overcards it certainly depends on how the betting progressed and the particular player who made the bet.


I would imagine that after playing 2-3-5 NL adjusting to .25-.50 or .10-.25 is tough.


Ken Poklitar

ohKanada@hotmail.com

There are a whole family of responses based on board texture, your opponents, stack sizes, your image, and their image.


Bottom two pair is pretty fagile. If the board is coordinated at all you probably want to be able to get away from it. You are often even (on the flop) to hands like top pair/flush draw or top pair/straight draw/back door flush draw, a 3:1 favorite over an overpair or top pair/uncorrelated kicker, and a large dog to a set. You become a bigger favorite on the turn to the hands you are ahead of and gain the edge on some drawing hands you were actually behind. So you have to put your opponent on some range of hands and then decide where it would be most profitable for your money to go in (or not). If its likely they have an overpair and they will get sticky with it then push back. If your image is such that they wouldn't do that combined with their ability and you think they have a worse hand then you might wait for the turn and reevaluate.


You also need to consider stack size and position. From your question I assume you are out of position (so what hands are you playing in early position that flop bottom two pair?). If there are lots of scare cards, you think you have an overlay, and the stack sizes are right you might consider putting it all in on the flop. You would prefer not to allow your opponent to be able to be able to turn their position into steal equity on the turn.

If the board is not scary and I can afford a free card then I will go for the check-raise.


If the board has flush/straight possibilities then I most likely will bet out. When I am re-raised I probably re-raise but the things I would look at are the kinds of cards out there. If I am in the blind with J2 and the flop is QJ2 then that is more scary then if I had 72 and the flop is Q72.


Ken Poklitar

ohKanada@hotmail.com

Well I'm talking about playing the hand from any position, but the sort of hands that flop bottom 2 are small suited connectors that i will play from any position if the game conditions are right.

Most of the games I play in are pretty aggressive so I don't tend to play suited connectors from early position much. But if you do you have to realize that when you flop two pair the board is coordinated. Against many opponents that means you will get extra action from people that suspect you might be on a draw (hopefully you occasionally push draws so your action isn't too predictable). Against those people I think you should consider putting it all in on the flop because 1) its more likely you have a significant edge and 2) your opponents won't be able to tell if you have a draw or a big hand.

I agree about the adjustment....maybe the low stakes are boring him into making bad plays.

I don't know as we should be talking about other poster's bets here. Not my business anyway, but I will say I've watched Natedogg play PL on UltimateBet a few times and each time I've been impressed.


I once saw him call a pot bet and win with a pair of fours, facing down a scary board. He obviously had a good read on his opponent. Maybe it was this same opponent he bet his 88 against.


And no Natedogg, I'm not stalking you or anything. I watch your play to learn and what I'm learning is that when I do make the leap to PL, it ain't going to be at any table where you're playing.

... you've got the right handle. There is a Natedogg7 or something on UB and this is not Natedogg. He did say what his handle was a couple of weeks ago, just be sure you got the right fellow before making remarks on his play on a public forum.


Just my opinion.


Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)

The handle I read posted here some weeks ago reminded me of Tom Cruise. At that time the id generously anounced wasn't Natedogg7.


And I agree, I think it's okay for me to open up my own play for criticism/admiration, or even be questioned by others by a public play made on the internet, but I don't think I'd like (possibly) bad plays discussed before I brought them up.


The fear is that people like Natedogg will just say "Screw it, I'll change my id to something anonymous." That makes watching online play a lot more tedious.


And hell, show me a poker player who says he doesn't make bad plays now and again and I'll show you a liar.

His username is topgun, so I've got the right guy. However, my question was TOTALLY inappropriate for this forum. I'd like to apologize to Nate for that. It is none of my business whether or not he is up or down at UB. I was quite tired and a little grouchy when I posted. I probably shouldn't have mentioned plays that I saw as bad. Maybe he felt it was right at the time. Maybe he's bored with stakes and can't concentrate on his A game. This is a major problem of mine. I'm a winner in live play, but I'm down on the net. It just doesn't feel like real money at the time. Natedogg gives some of the best advice on this site for big-bet hold em. I'll be starting a PLH home game in the spring and will posting several hands hoping for advice.