pocket pairs

a question for you no-limiters.


you've got QQ, KK, or AA and in my game, people will call all-ins [up to about 20 bucks] [we buy in starting at 20 but it grows after that]

with hands like AQ off, suited, even KQsuited and definitely AKsuited.


Would you take out their implied odds and just push ur stack all in with KK and AA? what about QQ, would u bet a little more than the current pot and wait to see what the flop brings?


I read a post of Natedogg's a while back that with pocket pairs, you don't want to have any chips in front of you left when the flop comes and you have a high pocket pair [i'm assuming so this takes out their implied odds]


[keep in mind this is a college, no limit game and the players aren't that great]


any starting guidelines would help. thanks.

n/m

My personal raising strategy is quite simple. All my raises are roughly the same amount. It doesn't matter if I have AA or 72o. If your raises vary based on your cards good players will notice and you will be in trouble.


Now the amount of my raise is based on the opponents and I will adjust based on the number of limpers. In tourneys I make a pot sized raise. If the blinds are 100-200 I would make it 700 to go. In ultimate .10-.25 NL my standard raise is 1.50 or 1.75.


Now what you do if it has been previously raised or if you get reraised is completely based on your cards.


Ken Poklitar

You have to vary your raise size based on position, the amount of money already in the pot, and who you are playing against. The later you are the more money in the bigger you raise. However, you should rarely go allin preflop for a massive initial raise in cash games.


Natedogg is right about trying to get allin preflop, but this is not so easily done in most cases. Really you want to save big raises for your reraises. Get all your money in when a steal looks more likely or when someone has already shown good strenght. Be careful doing this with QQ though, as it is so easily run down.


However, i may be very wrong, and would like to hear other opinions.

I disagree that you have to vary your raise sized based on position except to account for limpers which is in effect the amount of money in the pot. If there is 1 limper in the pot my raise would be the same if I was UTG+1 or on the button.


And yeah I want to get all my money in the pot when I have big pairs but I don't want to telegraph my hand by my initial raise. If someone else has initially raised or if I get re-raised, I will make a substantial re-raise with big pairs.


The who you are playing against as you state is quite important. In ultimate that is why my initial raises are 6xBB or 7xBB. If I only did a pot sized raise in Ultimate which would be a .75 bet I might get 7 or 8 callers where I would like my raises to cut the field to 2 or less opponents.


Ken Poklitar

I agree with Ken about the size of the raises, they should be based on your enemies and not on your position. Of course, you should never say never, but a good rule of thumb is to be consistent on the amount you raise, whether you raise for value or if you are making a play.


Now the thing that's interesting in the play of a vast majority of players, is that they will call raises with the wrong cards. Bad players will fold 87 and call with KQ when it's exactly the opposite that they should be doing. Providing the stacks are deep enough so that they have good implied odds and that you'll get payed enough if you flop well. There's nothing wrong with calling 2$ on the button with 9-7s if you have 40$ left even if the opponent showed you his aces. What you don't want to do is call with KQ, flop top pair and get in trouble. This is a major nono in NL HE.


So to answer your question, let them come in with AQ when you have AK, or with other trouble hands. That's what you want. Make your standard raise, one that will usually leave you heads-up or in a three-way pot and hope for the best. What you want to do in NL is to put your money in the pot as a favorite. If you can manage to move in preflop with KK or AA, your going to make a bundle at the game if you can avoid other costly mistakes. So do your best to get the most $$ in preflop, when you are in command, and when the best holding is in your hands. If they call with KQ and outflop you, them's the brakes. You still made a good +EV play.


What Natedogg said is quite right, if you can't get all your cash in preflop you'd like to have a pot size bet left to bet on the flop. Things can get complicated if you make that pot size bet on the flop and get called, if you still have a large stack in front of you.


Good luck,


Nicolas Fradet (The Prince)

The reason i said position allows you to make a bigger bet is twofold.


Firstly the increased pot size due to limpers makes for a larger bet being correct.


Secondly if I am in late postion i occasionally put in a overbet with 54s 67s and the like as an attempt to pick up the dead money. Also i obviously make the same bet with Aces or Kings.


Another factor is the limp reraise. You always raise at least the pot with Aces or Kings in late position (i prefer to go for about 1.5 to 2 times the pot in most cases, this cuts down implied odds, and makes it easier to get allin if played back at. But in early poistion i often limp reraise if i know there are aggressive players in the game, particularly if they are the sort to call an allin reraise with weak hands. I have had an $38 allin called at UB by the raiser when i reraised allin with KK and he had 28s.


So this is why i feel that position is a major factor in determining the bet size.

paired aces, kings, and queens have sort of been lumped together heren and that's OK


but in regards to those three, the amount I want to bet before the flop is inverse relation to the strength of the pair

I would not change the bet amount between AA KK and QQ, except for a reraise situation. I often just call with QQ, and tend to back AA and KK (only wrong with the Kings once so far) with my whole stack if i can get it allin preflop.

Sure the amount you want to bet might be different but if you bet in relation to your cards good players will notice the pattern.


Ken Poklitar

I agree with Jellow. I've seen a lot of people put forth the "I always bet the same amount regardless of my hand" argument, but I believe that is not the best strategy. Mixing up your raise amounts with a variety of hands keeps your opponents on their toes, and it makes them much more easy to manipulate. If you generally raise say 7x the big blind with Kings but also raise that amount with AQ and J10s, raise 5x the big blind with Aces but also with 67s from late position, etc., you can decide on a raise amount from your arsenal based on your position and your probable opponents. Depending on how you go about this, you can sometimes induce a call where you'd wish they'd fold, or vice versa. Don't pigeon-hole yourself -- leave your options open! Just be smart about it.


Max

thank you very much for your thoughts. i will keep them in mind til finals are over and then utilize them.

Of course you are right that position will often make you raise more since there will be more limpers thus a bigger pot. And it does cut down implied odds. But to me, if the blinds are 1-2 and there are 4 limpers to me, a good raise is to 15$. Why bet more? Why would I risk 25$ in a 11$ pot when I'm on a steal with 67s? I'm going to have to lay it down if I get reraised.


The thing about overbetting the pot is that you want to raise an amount that will get you one or two callers. If you can get away with raising twice the pot and still get callers, then of course, you'd want to raise that amount. With aces or kings, you don't want to win it preflop, unless a substantial amount has been put in play. These are your money makers, you want a call. In the games I play in, noone will be stupid enough to call me without a very good hand if I raise twice the pot or more. Very good hands don't come often, especially when I hold aces or kings. You want players calling with trouble hands (KQ, AJ, KJs, AQ, 99 etc...).


But one has to be very, very good to mix it up enough in the amount of his raises so that a solid player does not figure out where he is, especially with tells. I prefer to be constant, that's deceptive. The key to poker is to play different hands in the same way. But why would I risk 30-40$ in a 10$ pot with my 67s when limpers put 2$ each ? That does not make any sense to me.


Raising the pot (or slightly more), is enough to cut down implied odds of your opponents and enough to get you a good profit with your best hands.


Nicolas Fradet (The Prince)

Max,


It seems that there are 3 methods to choose how much you raise:


1) Amounts based on cards: I think we all agree that this is wrong. For example 2xBB for small pairs & suited aces, 3xBB for AA/KK, 6x for AQ, 8xBB for AK/JJ. A decent player would notice the pattern. I don't really believe Jellow or you are advocating this.


2) Random amounts: Now this method is interesting. This is truely mixing up the amounts you raise. For the same cards you might raise 2xBB or even 10xBB. I can see merit in this method as long as there is no pattern. I think against lesser players this would cause some confusion. The only drawback I could see is that you might be overbetting weak raising hands and when you get played back you would have to muck.


3) Pot size bet: This is the method I use. Although on UB my raises are a bit more the pot sized which is an adjustment based on the types of players. As long as one raises with a wide variety of hands I like this option.


I think both option 2 & 3 will not allow your opponents to know what type of hand you have when you raise.


Ken Poklitar

However, one of the things you mentioned (forced to muck when played back at with weak hands) isn't such a bad thing. I would much rather be played back at when I'm holding QJ on the button on a flop of Q 8 6 against the big blind then have him simply call me, since a "play-back" means I can _safely_ much if they're not a player who bets their draws, as they most likely have me beat. But in terms of the "different methods of betting," we didn't distinguish between PL and NL. In PL, I'll almost always bet the pot, because it's true that too much information can be given away otherwise. It's NL where the trickery can come in more with random raises with random hands, because those few times when you do trap the person and convince them to repop you when you hold the nuts, you can take their entire stack. PL is slightly more mechanical, and on the UB and CCC games, raising the pot is most likely the best strategy.


Essentially, as you said, both methods 2 and 3 are correct depending on the situations. If you have success with whatever you're currently doing, by all means, continue :-)


Max

Ciaffone and Reubens book Pot limit and No limit poker advocates betting between 1.5 and 2 times the pot if there are already several limpers. This charges hands like 67s but if the money is fairly deep, such hands should definitely call.


If I can place a player on AA or KK by his bet amount (and there are many that you can) i call in any situation where the money is relatively deep, and i have a hand that can easily out flop Aces. Small pairs and sutied connectors are great but i prefer the pairs, as you rarely flop a draw that may or may not get there. I've lost count of the times a player has raised 50c or $1 on UB and i've hit a small set and got $30-100 in on the flop.


Mostly AA and KK are not big money winners actually, unless you get played with preflop. AA loses more than it wins postflop, as if all the money goes in after the flop AA is almost always beaten (by a good player, at UB some people will go allin with middle pair no draw).

I don't agree with your last statement that you lose more then you win postflop with AA/KK.


I do agree that players have problems postflop and push too hard. A paired board causes many players to lose a lot of money with AA/KK. My biggest UB AA loss came that way. Last night I did the same thing to someone who slow played AA. I flop trips and they did't believe me.


Ken Poklitar

To clarify what I think Mr Peterson is saying. More $$$ (as opposed to more hands) is lost with AA and KK postflop (then is won postflop).


Clearly you will often win the pot with AA postflop, but when the pot is large, it is usually large because someone can beat AA.


With AA the key IMHO is to get MORE than 25% of your stack in preflop. This way the other player never had implied odds to call you with a small pair. Now you can get the rest in on the flop, and if he beats you you will still likley win in the long run.


The worst you can do is get about 10-15% of your stack in preflop as usually it will be hard to get away from AA.


For example: I have 100. I raise to 10. get called. Flop comes 8-9-4. I bet 20, it gets raised to 60. I pretty much have to push in.


If I had 1000 I could lose 100-150 and still get off of the hand.


When you put in 10-15% of your stack preflop, you ARE giving good implied odds to callers, AND you will likley pay when they hit.


OTH if I have 100, and get 40 in preflop, the rest will go in on the flop. Usually I will just win, but even when I dont they riskes way to much to make way too little.


Now getting 30% of your stack in preflop can be challenging to say the least.

Yes thank you for clarifying. Sure you still win most pots postflop, but you usually only win the pot as it stands on the flop. If you get action here you are more than likely in trouble.


The worst situation is a flop like 2s7c8s. If you are raised they could be betting a flush draw or straight draw, and you are likely to move allin to make them pay for it. However, if they have trips, you are in trouble, and if they have 2 pair you are a moderate dog. Even if they have the draw, theres no rule that they are not allowed to make it. But if they have nothing they all drop when you bet. So in the classic AA/KK story you either wind up losing a small pot or winning a big one.

I still think you are being too pessimistic but I am going to watch carefully. Although when you have guys playing 86o and flopping 2 pair, AA is garbage /images/smile.gif


Ken Poklitar