The cards don't matter

It's often claimed that the cards don't matter that much in no limit hold'em. It's true that you can often win a pot without a hand.


But one thing that is hard to learn, but is absolutely essential, is how to spot those situations where you should fold with what is very likely the best hand. The cards just don't matter.


natedogg

u mean laying down top pair, top kicker on the flop with an obvious flush draw and straight draw w/ several other players behind you yet to act?


fold while ahead in fear that they'll catch up? i don't get it.


of course, in a heads-up situation and i have what are currently the nuts on the flop but are vulnerable and some guy goes all-in on me and there's a flush draw raggedy cards, of course you call, right?


Please enlighten us.

Sorry, I was very tired when I wrote this and didn't elaborate much. It's a tactical mistake made by players with lots of experience in limit but who are new to no limit.


The key factors for knowing when you are in a situation where it really doesn't matter if you have the best hand, even though it's likely you DO, are as follows:


1. A nothing pot. Three people have limped and there's $15 in the pot. You all have $1000 in front of you.


2. Questionable hand. Middle pair, or top pair weak kicker.


3. Bad position. You will not be able to count on the luxury of a cheap showdown nor the ability to take the pot from someone after they show weakness.


Here's an example that comes up a lot.


You see a free flop with J2o in the big blind. The flop comes J74 with 4 players. You all check and the button bets $5 into a $4 pot. You all have around $75.


You should just fold. Your hand and the position are just too precarious to go to war over a nothing pot. If he's a good player, he's going to fire on the turn as well if you call the flop. So that $5 bet represents a lot more. And the small chance that he actually has you beat can end up RUINING you if for instance you catch two pair against a set or make trip jacks.


Let's say you bet into the field and get called by one player. Now the turn brings an innocuous card. You check and he bets. Well, he probably doesn't have a jack, although there's a chance. It's a nothing pot, your hand is crap, and you are in terrible position. He's entitled to this small pot because of those reasons and you are going to put yourself into a precarious situation with some VERY tough decisions if you decide to play it.


A check-raise with J2o in the situation I described above constitutes a bluff. That is another situation where your cards don't matter because you simply CANNOT take any more heat with that hand in that situation.


In limit hold'em, it's almost a no-brainer call. In no limit hold'em, it's almost a no-brainer fold.


This is assuming opponents who play half-way decent. With weak fools, you may stick around because they will simply not put you to a decision if you call, and they will often let you get a free showdown from out of position even after you show weakness.


natedogg

A world class big bet player/friend of mine states

he won a bet beating a no limit game without being able to look at his hole cards.

<BLOCKQUOTE>A check-raise with J2o in the situation I described above constitutes a bluff. That is another situation where your cards don't matter because you simpll CANNOT take any more heat with that hand in that situation.


In limit hold'em, it's almost a no-brainer call. In no limit hold'em, it's almost a no-brainer fold. </BLOCKQUOTE>


Even with AJ you can be in a dangerous situation in no limit if everyone has 1000 in front of them. But I'm curious about something: in limit, is a call here really a no brainer? I haven't played limit in years, but what are you trying to do here with a call? Catch a 2?

Yeah, yeah we've all read SuperSystem, we know about Doyle not looking at his cards. But I agree with Natedogg about the nobrainer fold, and think that even with AJ you either have to put the heat on him with a raise, or fold yourself. You can't call a reraise, that is unless you have a hatred for money.


But it's certainly not a easy call in limit either. It would require a raised pot to play on in limit, in which case you aren't there, and are more than likely in serious trouble anyway. I can't remember exactly when i last won a big pot with J2o but i think it has been a while.

Well, perhaps it's not a no-brainer, but you would bet out or check-call in this situation far more often than you would in no limit. If you flop a weak top pair in a 4 handed pot and check-fold everytime to the last position bettor, you are probably giving up too much.


I haven't played limit in years, but what are you trying to do here with a call?


Technically, you should probably bet out or check-raise, but by "call" I basically meant "get involved".


What you are trying to do is win a pot that is rightfully yours, and in limit hold'em, the cost of a mistake is small compared to the size of the reward. You're getting 5-1 in my example above. If you let the button take this pot with the worse hand, you've just made a pretty big error. There's no denying it's a tricky situation, but you're more likely to tangle over the pot in a limit game.


natedogg

Nate in the situation you described wouldn't you usually bet the flop (assuming it was rainbow) with only three opponents?


Shawn

I may do it, but I'd do it with or without J2. In this situation, the J2 you hold should be in your mind nothing. Pretend you don't have any cards in front of you.


natedogg

Furthermore, if you bet say $20 into the $15 pot and somebody calls you, that is the LAST chip you are putting in, period.


natedogg